[Wayner]

It's a real simple suggestion. Newbies, stop buying used turntables! Again today, an email from another newbie with TT problems. The plinth is broken (at motor mount), no belt, no manual, no alignment tools. It's just not worth all the hassle. With all the inexpensive new tables out there, this is the place to start.

I think you will enjoy spinning vinyl, but taking the cheap route (actually more expensive) will take you down the path of frustration. I suggest models from Technics, Project, Rega and Music Hall to start out with. These usually come damn near plug and play and you can get a feel for what this side of the music world sounds like. If after some point, you think you want to go up the ladder, then go for it, but you have a lot to learn before starting on an old vintage table with broken parts, or things that don't work right.

Just sayin'

Wayner

[Minn Mark]

Well put.     

Buy that Man a Beer !   

M

[decal]

Wayner,
Great post.I took your advice about the AudioTechnica turntable but I got the LP60-USB instead of the LP120-USB(I'm a cheapskate!!!).Talk about plug and play,this thing has absolutely no adjustments and the on board amp sounds suprisingly good.I realize I'm not getting a fraction of what a good analog rig can give but damn,this thing is pretty sweet for $119.00.Thanks a million.BTW,I also picked up the new Spin Clean record cleaner for $79.00,it works great.I highly recommend both products for someone wanting to get into vinyl on a limited budget.

[Wayner]

Good deal Decal, this is the way to do it. When you decide you want to get in deeper, you can upgrade. Remember to keep all the boxes and manuals, everything that came with the table, so when it is time to upgrade, you can pass the table on to someone else, in a like new, functioning table.

Wayner

[Quiet Earth]

Excellent post Wayner . This advice bears repeating in the Vinyl Circle and should be the top sticky!

(Too many stickys over there, but this should be one of 'em.)

[drphoto]

This is the route I took on my return to vinyl. A new Rega P3-24 at a steep discount, along w/ a Denon DL-160.

I tried to fiddle w/ an old Thorens given to me to by a friend, but it just didn't sound very good. I wanted a Linn LP-12, but I would have been in over my head. Hell there's so many variants, I wouldn't have known where to start. Plus....mega dollars.

By going new, I got something that was fairly easy to set up. (though that fixed headshell is a bit of a pain) and sounds very, very good. I like that there will be no fiddling required, other than if I wanna go nuts and start adding upgrades parts.

I also like that by buying new, it helps keep this niche of the industry alive.

Wayne always gives good advice. He probably doesn't think I listen to him, as he recommended the DD Technics and an AT cart, but still, he's helped me with a lot of good info and advice.  to the Wayner!

[Wayner]

I'm glad you went the Rega route, I only recommended the Technics 'cause it was cheaper and didn't now if the Rega was in the budget. It's a very excellent deck! I also love the RB/300 arm, tho yours has the RB
301, still a very competent arm, indeed!

Now with the  savings and less headaches, you can buy more software 

Wayner

[rcag_ils]

It's a real simple suggestion. Newbies, stop buying used turntables!

Why should this only apply to Newbies? This could happen to anyone, Newbie or Oldhand. Oldhand could receive a turntable in many pieces, with no parts are available, or Newbie could receive a NOS vintage turntable perfectly intact. A lot of vintage turntables have NO MORE PARTS AVAILABLE, I don't care how many decades that you have been spinning vinyl, it just no more parts.

If you are a Newbie, (or Oldhand), and you are attracted to a particular vintage turntable, and it has a price that you think you can afford to lose, then you should contact the seller and talk to him about how the turntable should be packed and shipped to minimize the chance for it's plinth to break in half, then take the risk. If it really bother you, then find one locally, so you can go there and pick it up, but good luck finding one locally.

Don't expect anything used is going to be perfect (but of course, the plinth should not be in six pieces either), and come with all the original accessories, if they come with them, then you consider yourself lucky. If it doesn't come with a belt, alignment tool, then go buy one. It'd be a good learning experience. I am a really picky person, and some of the used turntables that I scored are not perfect, and that's why they are called "used".

Buying anything used is risky, it's no more risky to Newbie than to anyone else.

 

[Brett Buck]

It's a real simple suggestion. Newbies, stop buying used turntables! Again today, an email from another newbie with TT problems. The plinth is broken (at motor mount), no belt, no manual, no alignment tools. It's just not worth all the hassle. With all the inexpensive new tables out there, this is the place to start.

    Once again, fantastic advice. In fact, there's not a very good reason to get anything more than a Technics 1200 series. Its built like a tank, there are abundant repair centers and spares, and you won't get much better results with anything regardless of cost. The vast majority of the performance comes from the cartridge and proper setup, and the turntable and to a lesser extent the tonearm make relatively small differences.

     The only thing I don't like about it is the direct drive - paraphrasing Frank, "why do you want to bolt a shaky motor directly to the platter?" but in practice I can't really tell the difference.

     Brett

[rcag_ils]

there's not a very good reason to get anything more than a Technics 1200 series. Its built like a tank, there are abundant repair centers and spares, and you won't get much better results with anything regardless of cost. The vast majority of the performance comes from the cartridge and proper setup, and the turntable and to a lesser extent the tonearm make relatively small differences.

That's how the "silver era" got started in the 70's, many Newbies got fooled back then. Oh, better yet, get a "P-mount" model, so you wouldn't have to bother "fiddling" with the fixed headshell. Mitsushita, start cranking out those Technics/JC Penny MCS again.

I can see Frank will just throw this in the trash, put a fancy cable with the direct drive will make it sound wonderful.

[Wayner]

DDs are not perfect, but they have improved the motor over time, lessening the strobing effect some claim they can hear during playback. The Technics is the only one I can recommend.

I have 2 used Sony decks, the PS-X5 and X7. These decks are used, but for DDs are very quiet (as is the Technics) and perform awesomely with the Longhorn Gold1.

This thread was started because one of Frank's customers went the used route and came to us for help. We just can't fix things like plinths and missing parts. We felt bad for him, and advised him of his best course of action.

IMO, used decks are for those that care to take the risk, understand the workings of TTs and have repair skills to get them up and running. You wouldn't buy a vintage muscle car and not know how to keep it operating?

Wayner

[rcag_ils]

They can improve the parts over time, but they can't change the law of physics, a record making contact with a noise source bound to pick up the noise and get amplified. I guess if you spent a million dollars to build a direct drive motor, it might be more quiet than a low cost belt drive table. I stand by what I said " a mediocre belt drive table beats a mediocre direct drive." (the vinyle circle chairguy got all bent out of shape when I said it  ). I had two Technics direct drive turntable in the past, and they both sound like "in a tin can" comparing to an ordinary belt drive. I couldn't hear any "motor noise" when the platter's turning, because it's such a quiet motor, but the noise from that quiet motor somehow masks the sound. It's a quiet motor, but it's not a noiseless motor.

Have I heard every direct drive in the market? No. Were what I had the most expensive Technics available? No. Do I care to spend more money to find out which direct drive sound better than a belt drive? No. Does a belt drive convince me that it has better noise isolating property than a rotor of a motor? Yes.

Buying used, especially the vintage type turntables usually involve sinking more money into the units. But when you find that good one, it's well worth the time and effort. Ask the seller about the unit as much as you can before the sale, especially the experience that he has about packing and shipping it. Some sellers are irresponsible, but many are honest. I bought most of my turntables used, The only turntable that I bought brand new was a Pro-ject 9 years ago, and it came with a warp platter, and a defective motor straight from their Czech factory, there was an unannouced recall, so buying brand new is not always trouble free.

[Wayner]

This thread is not about debating between DD and belt drives. It about newbies buying used tables. I'm not going to argue with you about DD v belt, DDs are more then fine for some folks, I have no problems with mine and they sound like my belt drives, or at least very close. End of this debate.

The reason for the thread is to discourage newbies from going down the used path, as you just advised them to do. Do you think they know how to repair tonearm wiring or even find the right belt? Sure if you've had a few tables, you've learned how to do a few things, even tweaks, but some of these folks have never spun vinyl in their lives.

To think that buying used is the smart way to go, just doesn't make any sense. There will be problems, as this stuff is old, or worn or something else is wrong.

BTW, I've heard some belt drives that make more noise then the neighbors old truck.

Wayner

[TheChairGuy]

I stand by what I said " a mediocre belt drive table beats a mediocre direct drive." (the vinyle circle chairguy got all bent out of shape when I said it  ).

TheChairGuy didn't get 'all bent out of shape'; rather, I thought it an insensitive and considerably uninformed way you denigrated direct drive users on the Vinyl Circle. You wrote far more than the above in defense of your considerably uninformed opinion.

Personally, I use direct drive decks and enjoy much about them.  My fave table in my house (I own 4) today is a belt drive - a VPI Classic - so make of that personal slant as you will. 

Wayner's advice to newbies here is concretely excellent and a service to folks...as I'm no vinyl newbie, but I've inherited vintage problems and shipping disasters having purchased used decks in the past.

John

[TONEPUB]

A mediocre table is a mediocre table...

[Quiet Earth]

Yes, but a new table that works properly right out of the box will get the newbie off to a good start.

It's great advice. Why complicate it?

[eclein]

http://www.elexatelier.com/AT_PL120Improved.htm

Somebody posted this link on another thread, I think if I try vinyl it makes total sense to have this place do its thing and send me something I can plug'n'play...its new, its setup and if I like vinyl then I can go nuts. I forget who posted this but "thank you" to whomever it was....

[Delta Wave]

Yes, but a new table that works properly right out of the box will get the newbie off to a good start.

It's great advice. Why complicate it?

No kidding.

As far as DD "noise", I have a 30+ year old DD Luxman and it has zero noise with no modification, it's scary quiet. So don't let Mr. Naysayer up there detract anyone from a direct drive table, buy what you like.. it doesn't really matter if it's direct or belt so long as it's new and ready to play. If you don't know what you're doing, buy a new deck(pounded in one more time), it's that simple.

[Brett Buck]

That's how the "silver era" got started in the 70's, many Newbies got fooled back then. Oh, better yet, get a "P-mount" model, so you wouldn't have to bother "fiddling" with the fixed headshell. Mitsushita, start cranking out those Technics/JC Penny MCS again.

   I am not sure what your point might be, but certainly my recommendation of "proper setup" is entirely incompatible with  "p-mount" cartridges. And I had no interest in the direct drive vs belt drive holy war - in principle I would prefer a belt-drive but it seems to make essentially no difference in the results.

   As always, just like it was 50 years ago, the quality of the records themselves (both engineering, and workmanship in the pressing) is 99% of the total.

    Brett

[ricmon]

Back to the point of the thread.  Wayner has made an excellent recommendation.  It's been a wonderful journey.  I started out with a Project Xpression (the original some where between 3 - 5 hundred bucks with cart). After some isolation tweaking, learning how to dialing it in, then moving up to a better cat, then a better table and now lusting after a VPI Classic.  But if I had to spend my time messing with a busted used table I would have never been able to finally have gained the confidence that I am getting at least close to as possible a nicely set up TT that gives me much pleasure,

 Great post !

Ric