A new suggestion for vinyl newbies................

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 17721 times.

Wayner

Re: A new suggestion for vinyl newbies................
« Reply #40 on: 12 Sep 2010, 12:04 pm »
It was slightly more complicated then that. I actually had a friend of mine buy it at a garage sale. He was so happy that he found me this table, and I didn't have time to really check it out, as it was all boxed up. I did take a peek at it and thought it looked good, but never looked at the stylus or plugged it in.

I'm not going to offend my friend, so I'll take one on the chin. It's only $10, and I salvaged some parts off of it, so it wasn't a total loss. I pissed away more then $10 on other foolish notions.

Wayner

ricmon

Re: A new suggestion for vinyl newbies................
« Reply #41 on: 13 Sep 2010, 10:08 pm »
I'll jump in.

A friend of mine had given (or semiperminately loaned) me a Thorens TD-145 w/ a lower end Shure cart. Since I had a pre w/ a phono stage, I thought I'd give it a try. Well, the belt was pretty much shot, the phono plugs were corroded, and the lift mechanism was messed up. (I had to duct tape the knob to get the lift to stay down.) Sounded basically like crap, though there was something to the mids that got me thinking I might like to pursue this further. I realized I had no knowledge of how to bring this back to life, even after extensive online searches for info. And there is no local help.

So I got a new P3-24. Unheard. Hell, I'd never even seen one in person. I was actually put off by the look at first. I wanted the classic appearence of the Thorens type deck. You know, a wood base w/ a nice aluminum top plate. But this was a flimsy looking thing. However I plunged ahead.

It was not 'plug and play'. I had to learn about how to install and align the cart. (and which would work......sadly a Longhorn'd Grado did not work), learned about VTA (had to get a shim) and isolation (brass points, maple plank and isoblocks)

I think it sounds great. I'm amazed at the musicality you can get for around the $1K point. The look has grown on me. My inner 'engineer' appreciates the KISS principle at work. I really don't want to seem like a Rega 'fanboy'. I have not heard any other comparable decks.

I normally do not buy new gear (or cars) but in this case, I'm glad I did. It helps keep this small part of the hobby/industry alive for one thing. I'm happy some folks at the Rega factory got to pick up another paycheck.

Yeah, I'd still like to have a classic Linn LP-12, but I'm gonna have to aquire a lot more knowledge....and cash to make that happen.

In the mean time, I'm happy with my new table, and my newfound knowledge on how to make it work.

This is the point of this thread.  drphoto and my post speak directly to Wayner post.  I was a newbiew but ready to dive in.  So my first "budget" TT was not plug and play and the journey has allowed me to fully pursue vinyl enjoymet by getting my TT setup as best I can after all I lerned from that "budget" TT.

Ric

Wayner

Re: A new suggestion for vinyl newbies................
« Reply #42 on: 13 Sep 2010, 11:02 pm »
I just finished packing away the brand new Pro-ject Debut III, going  back to the seller. I can't recommend this table to anyone, even tho Mr.  Fremer did. This baby is another POS, IMHO.
 
 At first inspection, I was impressed, until I grabbed the tone arm  assembly. Loose in the vertical plane, loose in the horizontal plane.  Next the turntable mat was total cheese. The anti-skate device worked  very poorly and the steel platter actually induced hum to my Grado more  then a plastic platter did.
 
 The dust cover was nice, but the hinge system was of very poor design.  The arm would not latch into it's tonearm rest with the cue lever in the  up position (every other TT I have will do this).
 
 Hums like a bastard with Grados.
 
 I also heard from a very reliable source that Technics SLwhat evers are next to impossible to get now.
 
 So, while we are witnessing a vinyl resurgence, there are no cheap tables that I can recommend....at all.
 
 This is just getting sad.
 
 So far, I've spent over $600 on this thread, trying to help newbies. I guess I'm screwed.
 
 Wayner

dlparker

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 324
  • Dave Parker - KC, MO
    • DontKnowNuthinBoutNoComputers
Re: A new suggestion for vinyl newbies................
« Reply #43 on: 14 Sep 2010, 12:50 am »
I just finished packing away the brand new Pro-ject Debut III, going  back to the seller. I can't recommend this table to anyone, even tho Mr.  Fremer did. This baby is another POS, IMHO.
 
 At first inspection, I was impressed, until I grabbed the tone arm  assembly. Loose in the vertical plane, loose in the horizontal plane.  Next the turntable mat was total cheese. The anti-skate device worked  very poorly and the steel platter actually induced hum to my Grado more  then a plastic platter did.
 
 The dust cover was nice, but the hinge system was of very poor design.  The arm would not latch into it's tonearm rest with the cue lever in the  up position (every other TT I have will do this).
 
 Hums like a bastard with Grados.
 
 I also heard from a very reliable source that Technics SLwhat evers are next to impossible to get now.
 
 So, while we are witnessing a vinyl resurgence, there are no cheap tables that I can recommend....at all.
 
 This is just getting sad.
 
 So far, I've spent over $600 on this thread, trying to help newbies. I guess I'm screwed.
 
 Wayner

So in other words, I should be pretty darn happy with my 25-30 year-old Denon DP-30LII, right?  It's got a Grado M+ (I think - used to be able to read print that small) and the sound of 30+ year-old vinyl through a PAT5/FETII Omega III 260 really knocked my socks off!

rcag_ils

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1101
Re: A new suggestion for vinyl newbies................
« Reply #44 on: 14 Sep 2010, 02:38 pm »
Quote
So far, I've spent over $600 on this thread, trying to help newbies. I guess I'm screwed.

Quote
So, while we are witnessing a vinyl resurgence, there are no cheap tables that I can recommend....at all.
 
 This is just getting sad.

It seems to be your theory of "newbie should buy plug-and -play new turntable" is not holding any water.

I am not trying to be Monday morning quarterback here. I have not been tracking the latest Plug-and-play turntables in the market, but judging by their pictures, I kind of suspecting that you get what you paid for

My theory turns out to be somewhat true that newbie should buy whatever they like, even used table with  shattered plinth which could happen to ANYONE.

I am sure the newbies would thank you for spending money and time to find out on their behalf just how many cheap plug and play decks are out there.

My advice to newbie is to study the good classic used turntables as much as you can, there are vast of info online. Then set a price point that you can lose. Once you find that good one, it will blow away any cheap beginner's plug-and-play units. And learn about how to set it up and how turntable work along the way. Good luck.

Quote
Hums like a bastard with Grados.

Interesting, my 17 year old Pro-ject 6.1 which is from the same family of the current Pro-ject, doesn't hum with Grado.

Wayner

Re: A new suggestion for vinyl newbies................
« Reply #45 on: 14 Sep 2010, 03:54 pm »
There is no way to start a project like this unless you start at the bottom. This also doesn't change my opinion that newbies shouldn't start out new, they will just have to shell out more. These 2 tables were the bottom rung of Music Hall and Project.

BY the way, my mission is multi-layered, so I'm not just doing this for the newbies, tho they get the benefit of a short review. There are plenty of models to go, but i want to be practical also.

W

rcag_ils

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1101
Re: A new suggestion for vinyl newbies................
« Reply #46 on: 14 Sep 2010, 08:13 pm »
My prediction is to get a halfass decent new plug and play turntable nowaday, you would have to pay a little over a grand for it, and it will require some form of setting up. With that kind of money, there are plenty of good, solid used turntable to choose from, and probably for a lower price.

I would never pay over $800 for a good used table, if it came with a highend arm, then I would pay a little over $1,000, $1200.00 max, that's my rule. All my used tables cost less than $500.00, they are all plug and play and came with decent arms, required a little adjustment here and there,of course, and that's how you learn, newbies. They kick low end Pro-jects ass big time. They didn't come with shattered plinth either.

Am I just lucky or what?

As you know very well by now, low end Pro-ject aren't worth a shit, high end Project aren't cheap, they wanted over $1,000 for a piece of MDF with their "better arm", for crying out loud, not worth it in my book. I'd say we have no choice but to take our chances and buy used, or shell out $2,000 to buy a new VPI or something. But do whatever you want, of course.

A good used table beats a low end new table, and probably cost less, but the plinth may come in many pieces, do you feel lucky, punk.

Wayner

Re: A new suggestion for vinyl newbies................
« Reply #47 on: 14 Sep 2010, 08:39 pm »
I don't think you, or I know where the price break point is between shit and shine-ola. I'm going to find it, even if it costs me some more doe-ray-me. One product that I always recommend is the Technics SL1200MK2. It's a killer machine for under a grand, but production now is low (and demand high) and prices for a stock one at KAB is about $700. Used machines are less, but the history of the previous owner and the success of the shipping (getting it in one piece), plus the price of the used machine, ($400+) make me go back to buying new.

If a newbie has his/her eyes on a new VPI, more power to them, but I don't think that is the gold standard for many others that just want to get a taste. Lots of cash for something uncertain.

Wayner


rcag_ils

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1101
Re: A new suggestion for vinyl newbies................
« Reply #48 on: 14 Sep 2010, 08:57 pm »
Quote
If a newbie has his/her eyes on a new VPI, more power to them, but I don't think that is the gold standard for many others that just want to get a taste.

I am not suggesting anyone to buy a new VPI, I would not buy a new one myself, because I know a few years from now, that $2795 "classic" is going to be $1795 or less in the used market.

My point is how much one's willing to spend to just "get a taste"? Or is it even possible? Spending $2795 on a VPI is more than getting a taste, spending $700 on a Technics 1200 is just bad taste. spending $375 or less on a good used Empire is good taste, spend $499 on a Pro-ject starter (kind of your original recommendation) has no taste at all (have to ship it back before you even play it).

Trying to find a $499 new, no setting-up, solid, audiophile quality turntable and learn about how does it work along the way? Good luck with that.

Oh, by the way, the loose bearing on the Pro-ject Debut arm, you may be able to tighten it up, better yet, have the newbies do it, they need to learn on a new table, remember?

HalSF

Re: A new suggestion for vinyl newbies................
« Reply #49 on: 14 Sep 2010, 09:05 pm »
If I were starting out in vinyl today, I’d definitely dig a little deeper into my wallet and get something new. The range of choices has expanded so much. But I feel tremendously lucky to have scored a pristine secondhand Rega Planar 3 a few years back, before the vinyl revival really got up a head of steam. With the Rega motor upgrade kit added, a Ortofon Kontrapunkt A cartridge, and loving care from a good local tech guy, I’m having a great time spinning vinyl in the beautiful foothills of the the high end.

rcag_ils

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1101
Re: A new suggestion for vinyl newbies................
« Reply #50 on: 14 Sep 2010, 09:21 pm »
Quote
If I were starting out in vinyl today, I’d definitely dig a little deeper into my wallet and get something new. The range of choices has expanded so much. But I feel tremendously lucky to have scored a pristine secondhand Rega Planar 3 a few years back

That is a fallacy, do you really think by digging deeper into your wallet will buy you better quality nowaday? You'd have to be very naive to believe that.

That Rega 3 of yours, if you buy new today, it'll come with a RB301 instead of the RB300, RB301 has lesser quality, cheaper mount, that's a way for Rega to cut cost and still be able to sell it at their price point, which is higher than what it was before. Basically, raise the price and give you less quality. See, you are right that you are lucky to get that used Rega with a better arm. If you bought the same table new today, you'd have paid more and get less, Wayne can tell you all about that.

You would have to dig real deep into your wallet to get better quality, just digging a little deeper won't cut it.

HalSF

Re: A new suggestion for vinyl newbies................
« Reply #51 on: 14 Sep 2010, 09:39 pm »
"That is a fallacy, do you really think by digging deeper into your wallet will buy you better quality nowaday? You'd have to be very naive to believe that.”
Whoa, easy tiger! My naivete is part of my gracious charm. Anyhoo, I was trying to say something in the spirit of the advice that started this thread, because I was LUCKY as hell to get a classic that was also easily upgradeable, and then able to allocate more money for a decent cartridge. But it would have been a sad story if the used unit was damaged or had too many miles on it. This discussion kicked off with a simple idea: newbies, buy new. But that gesture toward hard-won wisdom is getting lost a bit in a drift toward trashing the notion that there’s little value to be found in not-seriously-expensive turntables in these latter days of vice, fraud, and debased standards. That seems a little harsh, and discouraging to boot.

rcag_ils

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1101
Re: A new suggestion for vinyl newbies................
« Reply #52 on: 14 Sep 2010, 10:00 pm »
Quote
This discussion kicked off with a simple idea: newbies, buy new.

This was not how the thread kicked off. 

The thread kicked off with......

1."newbie, buy inexpensive new, don't buy anything used", then it becomes

2.buy inexpensive new belt drive, or direct drive.

3.then bought two inexpensive new belt drives just to see, they suck, I am returning them.
   also, bought a $10 used Technics direct drive, but that one suck too (that's a given).

4. Maybe the new Technics will be a good one, but it's no longer inexpensive.

During all these, newbies cheering "good idea, good advice"  but me, though I am not a newbie.

5. Now it is pretty much at "don't buy used, they may come to you in pieces."

About the being too harsh comment, I must admit that I am not very good at picking good sounding and soothing adjectives, if it offended anyone, it was unintentional, and should not be interpreted as personal attacks.

 


HalSF

Re: A new suggestion for vinyl newbies................
« Reply #53 on: 14 Sep 2010, 10:15 pm »
I just find it hard to believe that if you’re willing to spend $500 (or maybe a little more) on a brand-new turntable, there are no decent, well-designed, reliable, and sweet-sounding options out there. I’m not talking about flying Michael Fremer to the moon.

drphoto

Re: A new suggestion for vinyl newbies................
« Reply #54 on: 14 Sep 2010, 11:28 pm »
Hey, I have the 301 arm, and I think it sounds pretty darn nice. By many accounts I've read online, both from 'reviewers' and users akike,  the P3-24 is a significant upgrade over the original P3 with the through the plinth mount RB300. I'm not privy to Rega's engineering data. Was this a move to save money? Maybe, but perhaps the surface mount design actually works better. I know now that one either buys into the Rega philosophy (low mass, etc) or doesn't. Something tells me they don't mess w/ a classic unless they think it works sonically.

Look, I'm sure there are better sounding and better bargain vintage decks out there. I really wanted a Linn LP-12. But I didn't know where to start. So many versions..... I don't even know the Lingo they use (pun intended)

So I went new. I'm glad I did. It wasn't plug-n-play. I had to educate myself on some basic stuff. To my ears....it sounds bettter than I ever expected.

I made this decision well before Wayne made his post.

I think the intent or the original post was if you go new, you can be pretty sure it will at least work. Now will the true entry level $300-400 units perform? I guess that depends on what one expects. I don't think the original intent was to say buying used decks is a mistake. Just that it can be laden w/ landmines.

How about a few suggestions on used decks that are good bargains? I think you mentioned Empire? Folks like myself tend to only think of the obvious like Linn and Sota for the classics.

Let's not get into a flame here. I went down the path of new.....fairly inexpensive, but not rock bottom. I love what I have. But that is not to say there are many other paths to take.



gjs_cds

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 327
Re: A new suggestion for vinyl newbies................
« Reply #55 on: 15 Sep 2010, 12:19 am »
Reading this thread confirms my desire to stay digital...

eclein

  • Volunteer
  • Posts: 4562
  • ..we walk the plank with our eyes wide open!-Gotye
Re: A new suggestion for vinyl newbies................
« Reply #56 on: 15 Sep 2010, 12:48 am »
I think I'm sticking with CD's and wav files myself, I was thinking about vinyl but would be starting from scratch and really don't have the storage space for a vinyl collection or the energy to do what type of maintenance is required to playback the format correctly. My kids wouldn't put fourth the effort to maintain a collection when I'm gone but would probably enjoy a nice collection of CD's so I'm just gonna stay this course in the digital domain...thats my final answer!!!

rcag_ils

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1101
Re: A new suggestion for vinyl newbies................
« Reply #57 on: 15 Sep 2010, 01:18 am »
Quote
Hey, I have the 301 arm, and I think it sounds pretty darn nice

I've never said it wasn't nice sounding, the new RB301 with the new cheaper three point mounting job, I think the thing was made out of plastic, instead of the old metal one (I think it was stainless steel), that eliminate using the after market useful VTA adjusting device, now you'd have to buy the VTA shims from guess who, Rega, if you want to adjust the VTA (unless someone already made a device that make it easier for the 3 point mounting system). It'll take 10 times longer to shimming and checking it's VTA vs the finger nut and turning VTA adjustment. That is charging you more and giving you less.

How much is a new Rega 3 now? $850 to $900? So it's up there.

drphoto

Re: A new suggestion for vinyl newbies................
« Reply #58 on: 15 Sep 2010, 03:40 am »
Pete Riggle for one makes an aftermarket VTA adjuster for the 3 point arm. Sure you can bash Rega for making an arm that doesn't have this feature. They set up their arm for their own carts. You either accept this, or you don't.  Whether a plastic mount is better or worse than stainless steel is beyond me. I'm no engineer. Seems like it screams 'cheap'. But hell, maybe it offers better isolation. I don't care if it's made from cottage cheese if it works.

And yes, the new P3 is up in the $850 range retail. I never said it was the lowest price option. (I got mine new, for a shade under $600) Again, a number of reviews I've read say it's pretty much the minimum level required for decent vinyl playback. Whether that's true either...I don't know.

Now if you can do better for less with a vintage unit, then more power to you. Wish I could have done so. Money doesn't grow on trees around here. Seriously, I wish I could have resurected the Thorens I was given for even a couple of hundred. Maybe I could have, I just  wasn't sure how, even w/ a lot of online research. Belt...yeah not problem, but I could not figure out how to fix the lift, and then there was the rewire issue.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be snotty. I just think Wayne was trying to say that you can't just pick up any old vintage table, even one w/ a known name and expect it to sound great.

Hey Ed! Vinyl isn't for everyone. It's a commitment for sure. Digital has come so far in the past few years that the whole argument based on sound alone maybe mute. But I'm having fun with it, and isn't that the point of all this?

Wayner

Re: A new suggestion for vinyl newbies................
« Reply #59 on: 15 Sep 2010, 12:09 pm »
rcag_ils (or bunch of letters), Comments toward other contributors such as "naive" are not harsh comments, rather personal insults. I's suggest throttling it back a bit.

Your recap of the thread is also filled with contempt. Point 1 and 2 are the same. The only tables I know that a newbie can buy are either belt drive or direct drive.

Point 3 had really nothing to do with the thread, other then buying used can be fruitless.

Point 4 is only relative to folks that are interested in DD turntables (and it's a great deck for newbies that are reluctant to shell out big bucks for higher end machines like a VPI).

And finally, point 5 is the whole point to the thread.

And now may I recap your responses. From your first comment, we all understand your position. Every comment since has done nothing but argue with the original post and with other contributors. You have a history of doing this. If you don't agree with my original post, then your 1 or 2 comments are welcome. Your other continuous bantering are pointless.

Wayner