[rcag_ils]

You can criticize all that I said. The original argument of "newbie, buy inexpensive new, don't buy anything used, is more beneficial" still has not been proven true. Statistics of buying used with a shattered plinth is not overwhelming. However statistics of a good used turntable blows away a cheap starter table is evidenced, that's why many are doing it. You bought two new starter table with disappointing results, and one used junk table (which could have been avoided), that's where it's at. The secondary argument of "newbies won't be able to learn about turntable unless they start with a cheap starter table" is simply untrue.

lesson learned, naive has just become a bad word, just like the word "fat". I need a cup of coffee.

[eclein]

drphoto- Having FUN is definitely the key!! We all find what works for us and ultimately have fun with it, I should have never gotten rid of my vinyl collection from when I was a kid-a big mistake on my part. I'll probably try vinyl again when the urge wins out, I never say never in this hobby.

Wayner- I totally understand what your idea is here, my hats off to ya for giving it a go, I'll be reading along for sure to see how you make out.
 Enjoy the music all!!

[Wayner]

You can criticize all that I said. The original argument of "newbie, buy inexpensive new, don't buy anything used, is more beneficial" still has not been proven true. Statistics of buying used with a shattered plinth is not overwhelming. However statistics of a good used turntable blows away a cheap starter table is evidenced, that's why many are doing it. You bought two new starter table with disappointing results, and one used junk table (which could have been avoided), that's where it's at. The secondary argument of "newbies won't be able to learn about turntable unless they start with a cheap starter table" is simply untrue.

lesson learned, naive has just become a bad word, just like the word "fat". I need a cup of coffee.

First, you have no statistics.

Secondly, as said before, No one said that newbies couldn't learn or that they were "stupid", to recoin your phrase.

Thirdly, I have not recommended any table yet (except for the Technics SL1200). But I am willing to investigate all avenues and I am in the process of doing so now. What are you doing?

The junk table has nothing to do with this thread (for the 3rd time) as a friend of mine bought it for me. My friends are worth more then $10.

Yes, my 2 tables so far are ones that I would not recommend to anyone, but I found out with my own money and investigated them on my own time in real life, and I gave freely my opinions on both of them. Where is your wonderful list of used tables to buy for the newbies? Do you have one, or are you just having a good 'ole time here at the AC?

Wayner

[Nels Ferre]

Wayner,

I am going to jump in here with another idea- that blanket statements are generally bad ones.

I've owned more turntables in my lifetime that I can remember. I've purchased some new and some used. Some of my least favorites were bought new, and some of my favorites were purchased used. I have also had a couple of really bad experiences on eBay: I bought a Dual that turned out to have shot arm bearings. The seller did, however, take it back. Another time I purchased a nice Sony direct drive for a relative that was dead mint. The seller failed to follow my packing instructions, and it got trashed in shipping. I threw it in the dumpster.

There are few used turntables I would recommend to anyone, newbie or seasoned veteran alike:

A Dual 1219/1229 refurbished by the Dual Dr. (still a great turntable and great for newbies.)
A SOTA trade in refurbished by SOTA. I've run mine with very few issues (belts and a vacuum pump repair) going on 10 years. I'd buy another without hesitation.
A Garrard 301 or 401 refurbished by Loricraft.

I would spend my own money on any of these.

I can see your initial logic though- don't go out and buy a used Ferrari if you know nothing about them.

I think it is just the blanket statement that some find off putting.

[rcag_ils]

First, you have no statistics.

I sure do, just take a look at the Audiogon and Ebay, used high quality turntables at reasonable prices ($300 to $900, depending on models) are selling like hot cakes. True, no one can tell who's buying them, newbies or Michael Fremer type, to make a neutral assumption, let's just say both.

Secondly, as said before, No one said that newbies couldn't learn or that they were "stupid", to recoin your phrase.

The reason for the thread is to discourage newbies from going down the used path, as you just advised them to do. Do you think they know how to repair tonearm wiring or even find the right belt? Sure if you've had a few tables, you've learned how to do a few things, even tweaks, but some of these folks have never spun vinyl in their lives.

I didn't say it, you did, actually I was advocating for some newbies, that they are more intelligent than you think, especially the ones with technical background.

Thirdly, I have not recommended any table yet (except for the Technics SL1200). But I am willing to investigate all avenues and I am in the process of doing so now. What are you doing?

The junk table has nothing to do with this thread (for the 3rd time) as a friend of mine bought it for me. My friends are worth more then $10.

I admire your persistency, I've never downplayed that at all.

Yes, my 2 tables so far are ones that I would not recommend to anyone, but I found out with my own money and investigated them on my own time in real life, and I gave freely my opinions on both of them. Where is your wonderful list of used tables to buy for the newbies? Do you have one, or are you just having a good 'ole time here at the AC?

As I said, I admire your persistency for finding things out for newbies, as far as the list for good used table, check my gallary, they are all between $250 to $500 max. What's that I said was inappropriate?

I can see this thread's heading for the trash bin. 

[avahifi]

I certainly don't want this topic to be trashed.

Wayne has put a lot of work into it and deserves a lot of praise for helping us.

I too would really like to find a reasonably priced new, easy to use and set up, turntable-arm combo that will work well with our Longhorn Grado cartridges.  Hum is an issue as the Grado bodies do not have electro-magnetic shielding (which would disturb their internal magnetic structure according to Grado).

I am still using a modified (external AC to DC power supply) HK T-30 turntable and arm with good results.  I know it is not the living end, Wayne brought one of his specials here a while back to compare and the "silence" from his own unit was really loud.

I do have an original AR put away for the day when my HK finally dies.

However it would be great to find a foolproof solution that did not cost $1000 or more.  More power to Wayne to keep on trying for us.

I agree with Wayne that buying used turntables is a real pig in a blanket.  One drop and the platter bearings are done for, one twist and arm alignment and bearings are gone too.  You need the services of a surgeon to thread in new tone arm wires if you can find any that are useful.  Did you used to smoke pot while playing records?  Then your silicon damping for the cue control is probably a thing of the past too.

Question, what about the lowest priced  Thorens table/arm combo, the TD-158?  It is shown at $449 from The Needle Doctor and comes complete with a throwaway phono cartirdge.  I believe it has an external AC to DC power supply and that "should" make it hum free.  Any users out there tried this model?

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[woodsyi]

Wayner,

I am going to jump in here with another idea- that blanket statements are generally bad ones.

+1!

A seasoned audiophile (but a vinyl newbie) who has a great digital system is not going to be happy listening to a starter TT. 
The original advice can be good for many people, but it would not be beneficial to every newbie.

[Wayner]

As the word "suggestion" implies, the newbie or anyone else can buy new,  used or whatever. It's their money and they can buy at what ever level  they see fit.
 
 I am not suggesting that newbies should start at the bottom. I'm sure if  Donald Trump started here at the AC, He'd want a Continuum TT  (at  $149,000).
 
 But, as many of you know, there are lot's of reluctant newbies, that  aren't sure to take the step, because of price or knowledge. I tried to  point this thread in a direction that would help this group of folks out  and get them started with something that wasn't trashed to begin with,  but would be of reasonable quality for the money (a hall mark of AVA).
 
 Are my statements a "blanket" statement? I think about every post in the  AC is a "blanket" statement. But no, of course not. Again, do as you  see fit.
 
 However, when time after time, after time, I read about the deal gone  bad over at Agon or eBay, I am reminded time and time and time again,  that the newbie is being mislead by his buddies and in the long run,  costs  many more dollars, and shear agony, trying to get out of the  vinyl hole that has been dug.
 
 Nels Ferre has been here long enough, that he is a big boy and has  probably been down the rabbit hole a time or two, and If Nels decided to  get into vinyl, I'd expect that he would do it right, learning from his  own personal mistakes along the way jus as we all have. Many can also  afford to take the financial "hit" that a bad outcome may bring.
 
 Perhaps I am the results of my own profession. Engineering involves lots  of predictions of events. Some are mathematical, some geometrical and  many "gut feels". It pains me to see someone fall down a path that  everyone else can see or predict, but the newbie can't because he/she  hasn't a clue what is ahead, up the road. They don't know what questions  to even ask, let alone try and guess some of the answers.
 
 I can't give someone suggestions down a path that I know is filled with  pitfalls, mis-cues and mistakes, when there is another way with almost  no fear of disaster, at least on paper.
 
 Wayner

[woodsyi]

I am not knocking you Wayner.  Your suggestion is good (for someone) and I don't think you were making a blanket statement although it was taken that way by some due to some strong statements.   The way I see it, every path has its own pitfalls.  A new starter TT has low ceiling even if it's more likely to perform well out of the box.  Better but used TT will have higher ceiling but will be riskier as it could be DOA.  Personality, finance, and musical expectation will determine what path is right for an individual. 

I started out with used units.  MMF5 to Basis 1400 to Oracle and Teres.   Same thing with arms, pickups and phono stages.  I didn't have any problem with them.  There were some "wasted" stages.  If the goal is to go "high" I would do a lot of home work and get local experts lined up and go for the "best" used.   

[woodsyi]

A curiouser tidbit:  I found that set up gets easier with higher end products, especially the arm.  Phantom II is the easiest to set up and I had to drill my own holes on the arm board.

[Wayner]

Right now, the Music Hall 5.1 is going for >$900. Is it twice as good as the MM2.1 at >$500? Platters are different, tho the arms look very similar.

Let me ask those following this thread if they would buy a used (expensive TT) from someone that didn't have the original box for it? I'm pretty certain (no statistics) that lots of shipping damage is from incorrect packing (lack of correctly designed box) and by far, the greatest complaint buying used equiment that has to be shipped.

I have bought 4 used tables over the years and one arrived with a cracked dustcover. I think those are great odds, but, and it's a big but, I bought used tables that had the original cartons for them.

So if you see a nice TT, like a VPI Scout Master or something like that and the guy doesn't have the original shipping box, would you recommend it to a friend or worse, a newbie? I just can't do it.

There is one brand of table I can recommend and that is a Rega, tho I think the P1 is cheesy, the P2 has the RB251 arm and the P3-24 has the RB301 arm. However, the buyer must be aware that these tables will offend any poorly or under shielded cartridge via the poorly shielded motor of all Regas.

This I can say from experience, because I owned the P3, which Mr. Blackmore now has (I have the original RB300 arm).

Wayner

[Scottdazzle]

Wayner, the Music Hall tt I bought years ago was in flimsy packing and arrived defective.  Fortunately the dealer made good on the deal and sent me another. On the other hand, a 30-year old Thorens TD-125 I bought was packed carefully in a substitute box and packing and arrived just fine.  I also know when I have sold and shipped turntables, they have been packed well and survived the trip.  My current VPI Classic was packed ready for WWIII and made it perfectly as you might expect.  The point is, you never can tell.

[turkey]

Let me ask those following this thread if they would buy a used (expensive TT) from someone that didn't have the original box for it? I'm pretty certain (no statistics) that lots of shipping damage is from incorrect packing (lack of correctly designed box) and by far, the greatest complaint buying used equiment that has to be shipped.

I would not buy a used turntable that had to be shipped to me at all unless I were very, very certain that the seller knew how to pack it properly and had the original packing materials. I also don't think I'd do it without a 30 or 90-day moneyback guarantee.

The same goes for some other items too. I've been bitten in the past by "shippers without clues."

[Wayner]

Scott, I'm sure your an old pro at shipping tables. The rules are simple, getting it packed is not easy:

1. Remove platter. Best shipped under the deck.
2. Remove counter-weight. Secure it in a separate box.
3. Replace any transit screws).
4. Tie-down tonearm to tonearm rest.
5. Remove any loose objects (like a 45 RPM adaptor) from the plinth.
6. Double pack.

Your point of just not knowing how the thing will arrive is the "nail on the head".

Wayner

[turkey]

Scott, I'm sure your an old pro at shipping tables. The rules are simple, getting it packed is not easy:

1. Remove platter. Best shipped under the deck.
2. Remove counter-weight. Secure it in a separate box.
3. Replace any transit screws).
4. Tie-down tonearm to tonearm rest.
5. Remove any loose objects (like a 45 RPM adaptor) from the plinth.
6. Double pack.

Your point of just not knowing how the thing will arrive is the "nail on the head".

Wayner

There is also the problem of the well-meaning shipper that packs something heavy in a thick layer of foam rubber. It's fine until the carton is dropped. Then the foam compresses, the heavy object slams into the ground and gets essentially the full force of the impact.

Then the shipper refuses to refund your money because they "packed it so well." UPS then looks at it and says that the packing wasn't sufficient, so they're not going to cover it either.

[DustyC]

If I was advising a newbie on a table I would suggest a visiting a dealer first. Find a 'table/arm and a cartridge that fits the budget and let the dealer set it up. Get a good record cleaning system going that fits your obsessiveness level.
Start buying records. Still interested after 6 months to a year? Fine, come back to me or a vinyl loving friend and let them guide you from there.
A beginner buying a used Linn, VPI, SOTA, is just asking for trouble.
PAY the dealer for your first pain free exposure. You'll be a lot happier.   

[Scottdazzle]

There is also the problem of the well-meaning shipper that packs something heavy in a thick layer of foam rubber. It's fine until the carton is dropped. Then the foam compresses, the heavy object slams into the ground and gets essentially the full force of the impact.

Then the shipper refuses to refund your money because they "packed it so well." UPS then looks at it and says that the packing wasn't sufficient, so they're not going to cover it either.

True, true.  I've found that home insulation boards (sold at Home Depot), cut to the proper size and placed between the outer box and inner box prevent this kind of problem.

[rcag_ils]

I am not suggesting that newbies should start at the bottom. I'm sure if  Donald Trump started here at the AC, He'd want a Continuum TT  (at  $149,000).

Why does it have to be at both ends of the extreme? either a $499 Pro-ject or a a Continuum TT  (at  $149,000)? Why can't it be a $399 used Empire? Which would blow away the $499 Pro-ject.

In this state of economy and the manufacturer's mentality, a $499 starter is going to be low quality, the Thorens 158 is $360 at Amazon, what do you think you'd get for $360 in high end audio? I don't have one, maybe I shouldn't talk, but it become common sense that $360 won't buy you much in new high end audio these days.

[drew54]

Hey guys,
Some used tts are so cheap that they're worth the chance.  A little correspondence with the seller can avoid heartache on delivery- I have found most of the people in this hobby, including sellers, basically honest.

My journey from Newbie to happy vinyl non-fanatic

 
New:  AR tt, 1978.  Would not recommend because of arm friction

New:  Sansui SR 212, 1981.  This is a cool looking belt drive tt, that I think has a good rep today.  I sold it to a friend for $25.

Used:  Luxman PD125, 1999.  Great arm, direct drive, but pretty quiet.  I picked it up on ebay for $125 in great cosmetic condition.

Used: Oracle Alexandria w syrinx arm. 2001.  $700.  I wanted an Oracle Delphi but couldnt find one in my price range.  Here I did some homework.  Looked up info on the the arm and table, talked to the seller a couple of times, had a bunch of pics.  The table was made in the mid 80s and arrived in good shape- plug and play with a used up blue point special cart.  I put in a Grado Sonata and used the table for 6yrs.

Barely Used:  VPI Scout.  Dealer demo.  2007.  Bought in part cause of the looks.  $500 off new price.  Again, multiple phone calls to the seller.  On Agon.  TT arrived in perfect condition w original packaging.  My current table, fitted with a Grado Sonata 1.  I know there are better tables, but i dont think they're better by much.

Used:  VPI 16.5 record cleaner 2010.  This makes almost all my records sound new again.  A miracle worker.   

Conclusion:
I trust sellers after I speak to them, get their phone numbers, addresses, etc.  have had excellent luck with used tables.  Also, try to fit the VPI cleaner into your budget. 

[dlparker]

Having been into this "hobby" (more like a music addiction) off and on since the late 1950s (actually probably late 1940s for the actual "music addiction" part), and having been through probably 2,000 or more LPs in my day (not all have survived, currently I've got around 1,000), and MOST IMPORTANTLY having changed residences with them countless times, I'd recommend against any one "getting into it" just to "get into it" without first considering this:  SOMEBODY'S GOING TO HAVE TO MOVE ALL THAT VINYL!!!  At age 64, I want to get entirely OUT of the analog audio world - (unless the vibrations are starting in my head and traveling out through my fingers through my instrument and coming out the speaker and traveling back up to my head through the souls of my feet - but that's a whole 'nother story). 

I understand the basic difference between analog and digital, but haven't the pure  practical applications of digital been a moot point since Descarte (???   the original "calculus dood", right?).

Enjoy the music, minimize the hassles.  And on a (very marginally) related (but still related in my warped brain) note - be on the lookout for a refurbed Sony TC-765 to hit the market.  Tape decks and 7-1/2" and 10-1/4" tapes are pretty darn heavy, too.

Thanks for starting this, Wayne!  Very informative, and now the Longhorn Green has gone on my list of AVA stuff I hope I can check out before I make my exit...