A new suggestion for vinyl newbies................

TomSV650 · « **Reply #20 on:** 2 Sep 2010, 11:33 pm »

Rega P5 with external power supply and most importantly, Groovetracer mods. Sub-platter especially.

rcag_ils · « **Reply #21 on:** 2 Sep 2010, 11:53 pm »

I am sure Wayne's intention is good, I am not knocking that at all. But I am not sure why some like to complicate the topic, with statement such as this.....

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If you don't know what you're doing, buy a new deck(pounded in one more time), it's that simple.

I mean, I know what I am doing, but I may still want a new deck!!!! Newbies may want a 20 year old used VPI!!! "Newbie should buy new deck" is too generalizing to me. And I'll pound this one more time, buying a brand new deck or a used deck should have no bearing on what one's vinyl knowledge level is at. If I was a newbie, I would still want a good classic vintage deck, and not a new cheap budget deck.

Delta Wave · « **Reply #22 on:** 3 Sep 2010, 12:10 am »

So complicated, it's baffling...

rcag_ils · « **Reply #23 on:** 3 Sep 2010, 12:18 am »

No kidding, Newbies must buy new budget decks, used vintage decks are reserved for analog experts.....

Buying a used deck ended up with a busted plinth could happen to anyone, newbie or not newbie.

Delta Wave · « **Reply #24 on:** 3 Sep 2010, 12:28 am »

So how is a "newbie" going to know if the vintage deck they are apparently drooling over is not a quagmire of problems? And to even tell if it's a quality deck? So someone hears the name Dual over and over again and on a whim they buy one of the later cheap plastic el crappo models? How would they have known? They're NEW to vinyl. Or they buy a vintage VPI or Sota online and it's a POS with a name plate stuck on it?

Ok, I'm done with the whole Devils Advocate thing, you're welcome.

rcag_ils · « **Reply #25 on:** 3 Sep 2010, 01:08 am »

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So how is a "newbie" going to know if the vintage deck they are apparently drooling over is not a quagmire of problems? And to even tell if it's a quality deck?

Hell, maybe I give newbies more credit than most of you, newbies aren't all stupid, or are they? From what you are saying, you make it sound like newbie has no idea what a turntable look like. Who's to say a brand new budget deck is trouble free, definitely not mine from years ago.

Let's say they learned their $499 Music Hall deck from inside out (which probably not a whole lot), they still wouldn't know if the vintage deck they are apparently drooling over is not a quagmire of problems. Not to mention some of those may be a very complicate direct drive, you know.

Wayner · « **Reply #26 on:** 3 Sep 2010, 03:37 pm »

There isn't one responder here (except you) that ever even brought up the word stupid. Nor did anyone imply this, at all. Newbies are inexperienced, by default, and that does not make any of them stupid.

Would a newbie know that his new, used tables' arm has a malfunctioning anti-skate (as an example) or that the motor is poorly shielded and his cartridge is humming like hell? Would a newbie know how to fix an azimuth problem? There's lots of folks here that don't even understand what azimuth is or were to look for it!

This is my whole point of the thread. Just trying to save some folks some grief from listening to bad advice. TTs are not plug and play, like a CD player. There are many aspects to proper set up, even tweaking new tables is sometimes required. Can't the poor newbie start with a fighting chance?

Does a newbie need to jump right into a 3K VPI and buy all the accessories right away? Well it's certainly his money, but lots of newbies may discover that after all is said and done, vinyl and all the work, just isn't for them. With a more appropriate deck, getting into or out of vinyl may be way less painful.

Wayner

Minn Mark · « **Reply #27 on:** 3 Sep 2010, 03:58 pm »

Wayner's advice kinda speaks to the 'old' custom (and IMHO, wisdom) of finding an educated friend, or when possible to foster a relationship with a 'professional' at a local audio shop.

I know, I know, I am not trying to open a can O' worms here-----just saying that back in the day (when I was a Newbie) I looked to the folks at the audio shops for good advice and assistance setting up the gear I purchased from them. The 'net is a great place to explore and shop, but it ain't no face-to-face.

Cheers,

Mark

eclein · « **Reply #28 on:** 3 Sep 2010, 04:10 pm »

Wayner...Thank you for the tip!! It makes perfect sense, I for one will take your advice if I try my hand at vinyl.
Ed L.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #29 on:** 3 Sep 2010, 09:49 pm »

Quote from: rcag_ils on 3 Sep 2010, 12:18 am

No kidding, Newbies must buy new budget decks, used vintage decks are reserved for analog experts.....

That sounds about right to me. A newbie may not have any idea what they are getting in for with a busted-up older turntable and not be able to fix it. And a "budget deck" (why you insist on calling a turntable a deck is beyond me...) is far more likely to be in one piece than an older one. If nothing else, unless is packed and shipped perfectly, even a brand new turntable could easily be damaged (flat-spotted bearings, etc). And, most of all, the difference between a "budget" turntable (a $600 Technics 1200 is *not* a "budget" turntable) and whatever the heck you have in mind is negligible once you set it up properly, since the limitations of the medium tend to be swamp any other differences.

Brett

Waynefi · « **Reply #30 on:** 4 Sep 2010, 01:20 am »

I would not necessarily offer the same advice. But this really depends on the circumstances. We have one old time stereo shop in town that has probably 25-35 used tables around at various prices $150 - $250. Some direct, some belt, 60/70's vintage. These have all been gone thru checked cleaned and come with a 30 day warranty. A maintained 60/70's Dual/Technics/Marantz/Pioneer, can last a long time. They will setup for free when you buy a cartridge, like one of the Sumiko/AT carts. I would prefer a friend of my get his feet wet this way, then spend $400 on low end Project or the like.

rcag_ils · « **Reply #31 on:** 4 Sep 2010, 03:35 am »

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Would a newbie know that his new, used tables' arm has a malfunctioning anti-skate (as an example) or that the motor is poorly shielded and his cartridge is humming like hell? Would a newbie know how to fix an azimuth problem? There's lots of folks here that don't even understand what azimuth is or were to look for it!

Let's analyze this here........how in the world would the newbies learn about azimuth, humming like hell motor, anti-skate and all that, by buying a plug and play new budget deck where there's only minimal or no set up and adjustment is required?

Should a newbie purposely twist the headshell and throw the azimuth off on his newly purchase Music Hall $499.00 deck, then they would email Wayner here, and ask him how to twist the headshell back to the way it was?
If the new budget deck motor has no hum, how in the world a newbie learn about shielded motor? Email Wayner and ask him how to pull the shield off the motor, so they can hear the hum?

I guess the only thing a newbie would learn from a new budget plug and play deck is the anti-skate, when he drops and lose that little tiny weight (or eaten by his cat).

The reality is, the best way for a newbie to learn about turntable is to buy a good used one and fix it up. If you want to learn something, get your hands dirty first. Not by getting a plug and play deck, then sit around and listen to it.

rcag_ils · « **Reply #32 on:** 4 Sep 2010, 03:43 am »

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A newbie may not have any idea what they are getting in for with a busted-up older turntable and not be able to fix it.

Not all used deck are busted up....not all require fixing either.

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And a "budget deck" (why you insist on calling a turntable a deck is beyond me...) is far more likely to be in one piece than an older one.

Music Hall is the example that I used, and the Brits tend to call turntable a "deck". I bought quite a few used decks, they all have come to me in one piece so far.

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And, most of all, the difference between a "budget" turntable (a $600 Technics 1200 is *not* a "budget" turntable)

You are right, I would not pay $600 for a Technics 1200, that would be paying too much for a budget deck....(I just have to throw this one in

)

rcag_ils · « **Reply #33 on:** 4 Sep 2010, 03:57 am »

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There isn't one responder here (except you) that ever even brought up the word stupid. Nor did anyone imply this, at all. Newbies are inexperienced, by default, and that does not make any of them stupid.

When I used the word "stupid", I said it in a positive tone. I also said that I gave newbie more credit than most of you here in my original post.

For example, a newbie audio hobbyist with auto-mechanic background probably can understand turntable more than let's say, a newbie audio hobbyist who is an English teacher or a dentist, or someone who doesn't know how to use a screwdriver.

It's very inappropriate to generalize by saying all newbies are only good for new budget plug and play turntable when they want to start listening to vinyl records.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #34 on:** 4 Sep 2010, 04:09 pm »

rcag_ils,

I don't want to

any further but consider this. I don't think anyone disagrees with your points about learning the hows and whys of what makes a turntable work. I just think that you overlooked the underlying point in the very first post. The newbie is usually looking for a reasonable way to get a record spinning so he can discover the vinyl experience above anything else. Further levels of understanding the turntable come with time and experience after a base line is established.

Perhaps the newbie should by a plug and play table to get the vinyl spinning and not worry too much about how and why. Just discover and enjoy. Then, if he/she is so inclined, go buy a different table to take the learning to the next level. Or, start fiddling with the one you have if it seems reasonable to do so.

One other point worth mentioning. Some dealers will set a table up for you in the store, and all you have to do is pick it up and drive it home. That is what I call plug and play. My dealer did that for me even though I am capable of doing it myself. I did a little fine tweaking to it as time went on, just to see if it was optimized and to learn a little more about the table.

rcag_ils · « **Reply #35 on:** 4 Sep 2010, 09:03 pm »

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Perhaps the newbie should by a plug and play table to get the vinyl spinning and not worry too much about how and why. Just discover and enjoy. Then, if he/she is so inclined, go buy a different table to take the learning to the next level. Or, start fiddling with the one you have if it seems reasonable to do so.

I think most of you get two issues mixed up here.

1. Are we talking about getting newbie started on spinning vinyl so they can sit down and enjoy? Or..

2. Are we talking about showing newbies the ins and outs of turntables, so they can become Michael Fremer Jr.?

Buying a budget $499.00 piece of MDF with a Rega 250 on it can only accomplish #1, and not #2, only hands-on with turntables that need work will accomplish #2, I've already explained why in one of my previous posts.

Definitely don't want to

here.

jrtrent · « **Reply #36 on:** 8 Sep 2010, 12:42 pm »

Quote from: Wayner on 1 Sep 2010, 05:49 pm

I suggest models from Technics, Project, Rega and Music Hall to start out with. These usually come damn near plug and play and you can get a feel for what this side of the music world sounds like.

Excellent advice. I now know several people who have discovered or re-discovered how much musical enjoyment there is to be found on vinyl records through purchasing a budget deck from Music Hall, Pro-Ject, or Rega. They were simply amazed at how much better records can sound than when played on the mid-fi Pioneers, Toshibas, Kenwoods, etc., that they were familiar with, 'tables that just didn't do justice to the vinyl medium.

Personally, I think buying new is good advice for everyone. I'm most familiar with Linn turntables, having owned one since 1985 and having sold them for several years during a stretch as a part-time saleman. Properly cared for, they are a long-lasting, trouble-free product, but one short trip transporting the 'table without shimming up the inner platter to protect the main bearing, or installing a cartridge without removing the tonearm before tightening the mounting bolts, can seriously degrade its performance. It doesn't take visually obvious damage to result in a disappointing experience. If someone wants to try out vinyl as a viable source for music, then a decent-sounding, properly functioning deck is essential, and Wayner's advice to buy a new deck from a well-regarded manufacturer is the surest path to getting that.

Wayner · « **Reply #37 on:** 11 Sep 2010, 06:55 pm »

Today, newbies, I bought a Technics DD linear track TT, model SL-QL15 for $10. It looked fantastic in it's original box and the owner assured me that it had a brand new stylus in it.

Well, when I got home and began cleaning, and inspecting, I discovered that the stylus was destroyed. Lucky for me I had an old "P" style Stanton cartridge in the drawer, so it was time to see if this thing worked. Of course, I should have known better. The linear drive for the tonearm was malfunctioning as well.

So, I just bought $10 worth of garbage. I did manage to salvage the 4 feet and the power cord, but the rest is in the dumpster. It would cost me another $10 to drive back to the guy and ask for my money back, so just chuck it up to not following what I preach.

STOP BUYING USED TURNTABLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wayner

drphoto · « **Reply #38 on:** 11 Sep 2010, 07:55 pm »

I'll jump in.

A friend of mine had given (or semiperminately loaned) me a Thorens TD-145 w/ a lower end Shure cart. Since I had a pre w/ a phono stage, I thought I'd give it a try. Well, the belt was pretty much shot, the phono plugs were corroded, and the lift mechanism was messed up. (I had to duct tape the knob to get the lift to stay down.) Sounded basically like crap, though there was something to the mids that got me thinking I might like to pursue this further. I realized I had no knowledge of how to bring this back to life, even after extensive online searches for info. And there is no local help.

So I got a new P3-24. Unheard. Hell, I'd never even seen one in person. I was actually put off by the look at first. I wanted the classic appearence of the Thorens type deck. You know, a wood base w/ a nice aluminum top plate. But this was a flimsy looking thing. However I plunged ahead.

It was not 'plug and play'. I had to learn about how to install and align the cart. (and which would work......sadly a Longhorn'd Grado did not work), learned about VTA (had to get a shim) and isolation (brass points, maple plank and isoblocks)

I think it sounds great. I'm amazed at the musicality you can get for around the $1K point. The look has grown on me. My inner 'engineer' appreciates the KISS principle at work. I really don't want to seem like a Rega 'fanboy'. I have not heard any other comparable decks.

I normally do not buy new gear (or cars) but in this case, I'm glad I did. It helps keep this small part of the hobby/industry alive for one thing. I'm happy some folks at the Rega factory got to pick up another paycheck.

Yeah, I'd still like to have a classic Linn LP-12, but I'm gonna have to aquire a lot more knowledge....and cash to make that happen.

In the mean time, I'm happy with my new table, and my newfound knowledge on how to make it work.

rcag_ils · « **Reply #39 on:** 11 Sep 2010, 11:44 pm »

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So, I just bought $10 worth of garbage. I did manage to salvage the 4 feet and the power cord, but the rest is in the dumpster. It would cost me another $10 to drive back to the guy and ask for my money back, so just chuck it up to not following what I preach

I am a bit surprised that a smart guy like you didn't check the unit out on the spot before you handed the guy your hard earned cash. YOU ARE RIGTH THERE. How could you get your cash back if you already threw the guy's junk table in the dumpster? Buying a used Technics was a bad, bad move to begin with, I wouldn't pay $.50 for it.

Either you are inexperienced in buying used turntable, or bad luck just keeps following you, buying new or used. I wish you better luck next time, it could have happened to anyone.