[woodsyi]

I tweak my setting between recordings -- Opera, symphony, jazz and pop-rock set up differently in general.  Most of the time, my 4 subs are not working very hard but that's because I am listening to opera usually -- not a lot of boom from the pit on live recordings. 

[doug s.]

audio blasphemy, imo, is not having at least one pair of subs properly crossed over and integrated w/your main 2-channel speaker system.

ymmv,

doug s.

[JohnR]

I'm reviving an old thread. Are there any change of views / divergent opinions / addendums?

I'd (now) be in the camp that says that you really need to measure and take account of the acoustic behavior of your room. Once that's done, you can forget about sub levels or whether they are on or not - it's just fullrange reproduction.

[driguy]

IMO the bad rap that subs get is from a few potential problems.
1. Poor sub design. Less frequent now than in the past but still out there.
2. Poor implementation. It takes work and some understanding like pretty much the rest of audio. One must take the time to set them up in the proper spot and then get the settings right. If using a HT receiver and it's automatic setup routine; good luck.
3. High crossover points. The higher you go the more difficulty I think you will have. IME about 100Hz is OK but it sure gets difficult above that.

Now, the good parts. If you get or build a good sub that matches your main speakers you get some real advantages. I will assume we are talking about powered subs.

1. You can buy/build your main speaker amps without having to consider the lowest bass. This of course lets you purchase a less powerful and quite possibly a more musical amp. I personally use an SET of about 12 watts. If I had to drive the entire spectrum of music I would most likely have to use a much higher powered amp.
2. You can use tube amps and solid state amps for what (IMO!) they each do best.
3. You have a lot more flexibility in placing your subs and main speakers. This can also contribute to audio nervosa so be careful.
4. By having the subs in a separate module you reduce the vibrations in the cabinet or panel for the main speakers. This can easily help with the accuracy of the mid and treble drivers and even the vibrations sent to the crossover network parts.

I personally have finally settled on the GR Research open baffle servo subs. I feel like I have finally reached the time where the bass "keeps up" with the rest of the music.

Regards,
Tony

[Geardaddy]

Even though my speaks are flat to 20 Hz, I use stereo Rel Storms in the corners crossed over at 30 Hz in the name of room pressurization.  I like the effects on depth of stage, etc.  Can anyone else comment on the sonic benefits beyond simply bass augmentation?

[Dave_b]

My Totem Arrows with matching sub are too sexy for my room, too sexy for my room....and there isn't any boom

[jtwrace]

I am curious to know how many have strayed away from the age old "2-channel purism" guidance and are now crossing over to a subwoofer(s) in their music system.  For those who are not integrating subwoofers, how do you control room interactions below the Schroeder Frequency, specifically below 100Hz, and how do you tame the ringing?  I have found it extremely difficult and very impractical to achieve a flat in-room bass response and reduce ringing below 100Hz without either utilizing acoustic panels several feet thick or some sort of PEQ device. 

The 2-channel purist point of view has been preached to us for decades, but surely I am not alone in thinking it is extremely difficult to achieve great sound without applying some sort of bass EQ...?  Some may say its a complete waste of full range tower speakers, so I am interested in knowing what steps they took to achieve a great sounding system (excluding having a custom room built, which is the best route to go but not possible for many people).  I'd also love to see in-room measurements of said systems showing that the steps taken actually reduced bass peaks and ringing.  Of course, this only applies to passive crossover designed speakers.

I use GedLee Abbeys that are run full range and four subs that blend with the mains.  I get a ruler flat response by doing this.  You can see it here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=86403.msg913119#msg913119

[flintstone]

Apogee Duetta Signatures run fullrange, with a pair of larger VMPS subs filling in the very bottom end. The room is fairly large, and the subs don't need to work very hard at all.........the sound is simply outstanding IMO. (I do use some room correction).


Dave

[JoshK]

I'd (now) be in the camp that says that you really need to measure and take account of the acoustic behavior of your room. Once that's done, you can forget about sub levels or whether they are on or not - it's just fullrange reproduction.

I'd probably be there in that camp with you.  I'd say setting up subs without measurement gear is like stumbling in the dark.

[Letitroll98]

Be vewy caweful wabbit when setting up subs.  If you can hear it, you've set it up wrong, so I also agree that measurements are the only way to go, a ratshack meter and test disc are suitable.  And as noted before, I find using subs gives you the flexibility to pick which totally inaccurate bell curve (thanks Wayne) that best suits your room and speakers.  I don't change my subs for different types of music, I like to get as flat as possible and leave it there, but I do boost the HT sub more than the music room sub.

Yes Geardaddy, you do get a greater sense of hall space when the lowest octave is reinforced.

 

   

[jtwrace]

I'd say setting up subs without measurement gear is like stumbling in the dark.

Couldn't agree more! 

BTW-2.4 ROCKS!

[Kinger]

Curious about how you guys are hooking up your subs.  Do you have pre amps capable of a high freq crossover or are you using the crossover in the sub and then feeding signal to mains or are you just running your mains full range.  Not completely opposed to a sub, but my pre (Ava T8) can only run full range outs and I'm a little leery of putting something between it and the mains for fear of it mucking up the signal.

[doug s.]

Curious about how you guys are hooking up your subs.  Do you have pre amps capable of a high freq crossover or are you using the crossover in the sub and then feeding signal to mains or are you just running your mains full range.  Not completely opposed to a sub, but my pre (Ava T8) can only run full range outs and I'm a little leery of putting something between it and the mains for fear of it mucking up the signal.

a quality active x-over will not muck up the signal.  and, relieving your main speakers and their amps of having to deal with any frequencies below whatever x-over frequency you choose, will actually make them sound better.

doug s.

[poseidonsvoice]

Curious about how you guys are hooking up your subs.  Do you have pre amps capable of a high freq crossover or are you using the crossover in the sub and then feeding signal to mains or are you just running your mains full range.  Not completely opposed to a sub, but my pre (Ava T8) can only run full range outs and I'm a little leery of putting something between it and the mains for fear of it mucking up the signal.

The GedLee enthusiasts on this forum run their speakers full range. The active crossover (whether it be attached to the subs or separate like Behringer DCX that I use) is only used for low pass on the subwoofers themselves. Nothing is mucking with the mains at all.

Best,
Anand.

[Elizabeth]

Where do you need a sub to listen to the Beatles?, Cream? Frank Sinatra? Elvis? Miles Davis? ...
Nearly ANY pre 1980s Rock?
Rock NEVER had any low frequencies.. (Well maybe Pink Floyd)
The music changed when the subwoofer became a part of the reproduction chain. not the reverse. post Mtv/home theater ...
The few organ and such Lps were a real exception to the rule that there weren't any low frequencies (I mean low like a sub is needed for) most of it was just fine with a normal  speaker. Only with the advent of home theater and small speaker/subcombos did the subwoofer and low frequencies mania start.Remastering has invariably added more low frequency content that the original artist ever thought. It HAS to be added to sell stuff.
Seriously, pull out ANY original Cream LP. Play it. it has ZERO low frequency content. Ditto Beatles.
Then groups like the Doors had only a smidgen.
It all is just like the exploding car crashes.. Folks seem to expect it. So they put it in. Think what a movie would be like if they just let cars crash like in real life. BORING. Same for subwoofer level music. It's the 'thing'.
I apologise...
Sorry I am ranting here. (Just point at me and whisper: nutcase...)
I just personally despise added LF content. (If I could think people dead, anyone driving those boom boom cars would die instantly.)
Real is good, the excess sucks.
 
Added: I have always lived in an apt building. and confess to making excess noise as a teen. but i have grown to respect my neighbors and never want to disturb them, nor be disturbed by them, and Subs are the ultimate boundary invading/crossing devil when it comes to miltifamily dwelling.

When you hear of folks killing someone over noise, that's me.. but for the grace of God.
    

[srb]

I just personally despise added LF content. (If I could think people dead, anyone driving those boom boom cars would die instantly.)

When you hear of folks killing someone over noise, that's me.. but for the grace of God.

Elizabeth, that is truly disturbing.  I don't like "boom boom cars" either, but the worst I would wish upon them is that their car would overheat or blow a gasket.  The only people I would wish to die are those that would want to hurt or kill me.
 
And though that bass is excessive, I think you fail to realize that the majority of people on this forum try to artfully blend in a subwoofer to achieve a "real" sound.  I have never heard an upright acoustic bass reproduced on a stereo system that accurately conveys the impact and body of the original without a 10" to 15" driver either in the main speaker or in an additional subwoofer.  And those that use multiple subwoofers are usually only trying to even out an uneven room response (most rooms), not produce mega-bass.
 
Steve

[JohnR]

Rock NEVER had any low frequencies.. (Well maybe Pink Floyd)

I'm sure there are many examples other than Pink Floyd. But regardless, that doesn't mean that one should limit oneself to whatever the standard was for one specific genre 30 years or more ago. Classical music has had low frequencies since whenever; it's not "boom boom" type of stuff but it's still there. At some point the desire for accurate reproduction will lead to subwoofers, I personally am convinced of that.

It is also more involved than the lowest fundamental frequency of any particular instrument. For one thing, there are extraneous noises on a recording that add to it e.g. a piano pedal. For another, when you have a waveform that is turned on or off abruptly, the frequency content of that signal extends across the whole spectrum, it's not limited to the notional "fundamental" frequency. I'd love to do an analysis of actual recordings of this sometime but for now I'll just claim it to be true

[JohnR]

The GedLee enthusiasts on this forum run their speakers full range. The active crossover (whether it be attached to the subs or separate like Behringer DCX that I use) is only used for low pass on the subwoofers themselves. Nothing is mucking with the mains at all.

I think it would be fair to point out that those speakers are not just sealed but use drivers that will roll off relatively high. To someone adding a sub to more typical speakers designed/intended to be used full-range, this distinction may make a difference.

PS. I'd winkingly (is that a word?) suggest that "mucking with the mains" might be another "audio blasphemy"

[doug s.]

PS. I'd winkingly (is that a word?) suggest that "mucking with the mains" might be another "audio blasphemy"

no doubt about it, john - this is one "audio blasphemy" that many audiophiles cannot get over.  which is why i stated earlier:
"a quality active x-over will not muck up the signal.  and, relieving your main speakers and their amps of having to deal with any frequencies below whatever x-over frequency you choose, will actually make them sound better."   

and liz, as to your rant, well, all i can say, is when i first got my active outboard subwoofer set up, (back around '95), my main speakers were -2db at 20hz.  but the improvement, both in the upper bass/lower midrange, as well as the lower bass, was nothing short of phenomenal.  no, i am not talking about excess, "low frequency mania", or h-t.  (i am not into movies, and i haven't watched tv for ~40 years.)  i am talking about plain regular music.  "real is good", as you would say, liz.  listen to this on a properly dialed in system that integrates subs that are flat to below 20hz, and get back to me:




of course, if you do want bombast - but REAL bombast - you could also listen to something like this:


























sorry - i got carried away - but the kodo drummers are awesome!   and yes, if you live in an apartment, your neighbors may not be pleased... 

doug s.

[Kinger]

Thanks for the comments guys.  So would the crossover in a Rythmik FS12 sub for example be considered a "quality" unit or would I have to step up to something like a Behringer be the best option?