[TooManyToys]

When I sail I try to stay in view of the coastline.  I've heard too many stories about boats too far out being sweep with the water as it falls over the edge.

[bmckenney]

Laura-

The original subject of this thread is:

"Do you guys subscribe to Cardas math for speaker distance from front wall"

You and your friends have never heard your speakers in unmodified Cardas postions, so saying MS sounds better "the modified Cardas," proves nothing about the Cardas math.

Before I'd pay someone $500. to perform an MS set up, I would have borrowed a longer set of speaker cables and tried the unmodified Cardas postions.

BTW,with that big TV between your speakers, it doesn't surprise me that moving your speakers closer to the side walls improved your soundstage/imaging.

Dan

The intent of the thread originally was really more about getting a discussion going on speaker placement in general, and of course also about Cardas since it's the standard by leader in the area in my opinion.  Either way, its great to see some serious attention paid to what is the most important part of a system, but often the most neglected.  I have seen far to many expensive systems with totally compromised speaker placement, that would be destroyed by an entry level hifi systems with fantastic speaker placement.  I do agree with you that people should not dismiss the Cardas method if they didn't try the placement to the inch of the math.  However, I'm sort of guilty of dismissing MS based on personal beliefs only.  I don't dismiss it, I just don't get it and I'd have to hear it to believe it.

And I also agree that TV will impact imaging and I bet even tone.  And I can see how moving the speakers further apart may sound better compared to closer together from an imaging point of view since reflection smearing is probably reduced.  However, further apart speakers sound sucky from a dynamics point of view IMO.

Bryan

[Daedalus Audio]

When I sail I try to stay in view of the coastline.  I've heard too many stories about boats too far out being sweep with the water as it falls over the edge.

[bmckenney]

It definitely is one of those hearing is believing and trust your ears, not your eyes things.

Bryan,

So far, 5 people have heard the before and after--me, Rod, Jake and my two friends who have been listening to my system an average of once every 10 days over the past 4 1/2 years. Every one of us will testify that the sound after the Master Set is better in every respect over the modified Cardas as shown in the pictures Robin posted from my gallery. The imaging is better, the sound is better integrated from top to bottom, the frequency response is definitely better, there is great clarity and detail, the vocals, especially female vocals, are more natural and less strident, the soundstage is 3-dimensional and the music can be played at a louder volume without hurting one's ears or it seeming "too loud."

You are correct that dimensionally the Master Set position is different, but to my ears, and the ears of the others who have heard the before and after sound, it also is much better--much more 3-dimensional than before with better imaging and focus. Close your eyes and the speakers disappear, and you can pick out the instruments across the wide soundstage in front of you. As I posted earlier, the sound is concert hall like and very emotionally engaging.

If you ever find yourself near the Inland NW of the USA, please let me know and I will invite you over for dinner and a long listening session. Bring your favorite discs, either small shiny plastic ones or the black vinyl variety. You too, Jim 

Laura

Its funny, what you describe you are getting, I'm getting, but using Cardas (mind you, with dipoles).  And I know for certain that MS would not work in my room and with my speakers.  It would sound shallow, closed in, weak.  Just goes to show you, doesn't it.  Its the one thing I've learned from this thread.  There is more than one way to get good results.  I do wonder if its the speaker design and room that really dictates which placement approach to use.  I have to think give a situation of a room and speakers, either one or the other placement is going to sound best.  I can't see how both will sound equally as good.  Always different sure, but I imagine one will emerge the winner in a given room.  And in some rooms, like a square, a totally different placement approach is going to emerge the winner.

Bryan

[vinyl_guy]

The intent of the thread originally was really more about getting a discussion going on speaker placement in general, and of course also about Cardas since it's the standard by leader in the area in my opinion.  Either way, its great to see some serious attention paid to what is the most important part of a system, but often the most neglected.

Bryan,

I think your intent to get more discussion about speaker placement has been met and perhaps exceeded your initial expectations. Just take a look at the number of postings and views. The thread has been viewed more than 9,400 times with the next closest thread in the Acoustics Circle having 4,979 views. There have been 384 replies, more than 15 times as many as any other thread on page 1 of the circle. I'd say there is a lot of interest out there in this subject. Thank you again for starting the thread. I learned a lot and found a speaker position using MS that produces the best sound I have ever heard from my system.

However, further apart speakers sound sucky from a dynamics point of view IMO.

Not mine.

Laura

[Wind Chaser]

I haven't read this whole thread, but has anyone been able to find a position outside the Cardas formula that works better?  Is anyone willing to try?  I always set things up by ear.  And after I've attained what I consider good sound, I mark that as a reference point, but I keep on experimenting.  Why stop with a formula?

[Daedalus Audio]

I haven't read this whole thread, but has anyone been able to find a position outside the Cardas formula that works better?  Is anyone willing to try?  I always set things up by ear.  And after I've attained what I consider good sound, I mark that as a reference point, but I keep on experimenting.  Why stop with a formula?

oh man... come on in   start on page 15 and read away, informative and entertaining...kind of like political pundits after hours

[timztunz]

I haven't read this whole thread, but has anyone been able to find a position outside the Cardas formula that works better?  Is anyone willing to try?  I always set things up by ear.  And after I've attained what I consider good sound, I mark that as a reference point, but I keep on experimenting.  Why stop with a formula?

I was set up using Cardas and was blissfully ignorant of what I was missing.  Anything that I had ever thought might be lacking in one respect or another I attributed to gear (or the lack thereof).  But I've just spent the past 4 days with a professional sound engineer as a house guest.  Within an hour of listening he asked me if I would consider an experiment.  What we accomplished with nothing more than moving things around and adding very little additional absorbtion or reflection (as needed) is nothing short of absolutely astonishing.  My speakers are closer to the front wall than I would EVER have considered putting them.  They are also closer to the side walls than before but not as dramatic a difference as the change in distance from the front wall.  The soundstage is HUGE, deep, full, tall, distinct and we gained an entire octave of low end.  The sweet spot tripled in size and there just isn't anywhere in the entire room that the music doesn't sound good.  Of course, the sweet spot is still the SWEET spot.  But it's not the only spot.

So yes, all the rules went out the window and I trusted a set of golden ears in the industry and the results are staggering.  Another friend who has listened to my system more than anyone else heard it for the first time with this change and said it was not even close to the same system.  Experiment away is what I say.  There are untold riches out there!

[JakeJ]

Could you provide us with pictures of before and after, please?

[Wind Chaser]

I think a formula is a good starting point because most people don't know where to begin or even have an idea of what to reasonably expect.  As I recall when I was 18, I had spent 20K on my first serious system and was dismally disappointed with the sound coming from that investment.

So Ian Cabral of Upper Sound came over to my place and spent an afternoon setting things up.  He spent most of his time with the speakers, which being electrostats require more effort than conventional speakers to get them sounding right.  When he finished doing his thing, my jaw hit the floor.  The result was much better than what I hoped for, or even could conceive of for that matter.

In that afternoon I learned two things.  While there are basic principles to positioning speakers in a room, there is no substitute for painstaking persevering experimentation.  But unless you know what to listen for, it's a clueless crap shot.  However once you’ve experienced something truly special, that experience stays with you as a benchmark.

So I say begin with the formula, but don’t stop there. 

[timztunz]

Could you provide us with pictures of before and after, please?

Yes, I will be happy to do so but it will take me a few days.  I'm on my way out of the country for a couple of weeks.  If I can't get it posted before I leave it will be a couple of weeks.

I also think Wind Chaser nailed it exactly with his comment, "...once you’ve experienced something truly special, that experience stays with you as a benchmark."  Without that experience in your memory banks you might not ever get outside of the proverbial box.  My final set up is so much different than the formula that I would never have gone there had it not been for that elusive sound memory that my friend persevered for.  Just my 2 cents.

[timztunz]

Could you provide us with pictures of before and after, please?

Actually my last post is not 100% accurate.  You can almost see before/after by going to my System or Gallery.  That is BEFORE.  The AFTER puts the front of the speakers just a bit further out into the room that front of the amp stands and the speakers are about 3" from the sides of the amp stands.  The speakers were moved back over 4.5 feet.

[JakeJ]

Yes, I will be happy to do so but it will take me a few days.  I'm on my way out of the country for a couple of weeks.  If I can't get it posted before I leave it will be a couple of weeks.

Cool, thanks.  Have a great time.

I also think Wind Chaser nailed it exactly with his comment, "...once you’ve experienced something truly special, that experience stays with you as a benchmark."  Without that experience in your memory banks you might not ever get outside of the proverbial box.  My final set up is so much different than the formula that I would never have gone there had it not been for that elusive sound memory that my friend persevered for.  Just my 2 cents.

I understand where you are coming from but the step by step instructions are posted in the Lab circle and anyone can try it.  Simply mark where your speakers are now and start moving them.  Don't like it?  Just move them back.  Listen with your ears not your eyes.

[timztunz]

Cool, thanks.  Have a great time.
 
I understand where you are coming from but the step by step instructions are posted in the Lab circle and anyone can try it.  Simply mark where your speakers are now and start moving them.  Don't like it?  Just move them back.  Listen with your ears not your eyes.

You're exactly right.  Prior to this I had let my eyes, mathematical calculations and preconceived ideas have WAY too much say in the matter.

[Daedalus Audio]

You're exactly right.  Prior to this I had let my eyes, mathematical calculations and preconceived ideas have WAY too much say in the matter.

I think a formula is a good starting point because most people don't know where to begin or even have an idea of what to reasonably expect.  As I recall when I was 18, I had spent 20K on my first serious system and was dismally disappointed with the sound coming from that investment.

So Ian Cabral of Upper Sound came over to my place and spent an afternoon setting things up.  He spent most of his time with the speakers, which being electrostats require more effort than conventional speakers to get them sounding right.  When he finished doing his thing, my jaw hit the floor.  The result was much better than what I hoped for, or even could conceive of for that matter.

In that afternoon I learned two things.  While there are basic principles to positioning speakers in a room, there is no substitute for painstaking persevering experimentation.  But unless you know what to listen for, it's a clueless crap shot.  However once you’ve experienced something truly special, that experience stays with you as a benchmark.

So I say begin with the formula, but don’t stop there. 

thanks for joining in this thread.  I think we may have drifted into an exclusive (either/or) mindset and your inclusive style of comments are more in line with what we all want.
best regards,
lou

[satfrat]

You're exactly right.  Prior to this I had let my eyes, mathematical calculations and preconceived ideas have WAY too much say in the matter.

Mmmm, trusting one's ears,,, what a novel idea. 
 
Cheers,
Robin

[DougSmith]

This thread piqued my interest lately.  The other day I petty much read through the whole thing.  I am intrigued with the positive experiences expressed by various people either following Cardas' recommendations or the experienced ears of someone else.  I only saw one "before and after" measurement curve presented (albeit without much resolution, and without any time dimension).  So I'm just curious... has anyone tried to measure the differences in what they are hearing to see what might be responsible for the better experience?

- Doug

[stvnharr]

This thread piqued my interest lately.  The other day I petty much read through the whole thing.  I am intrigued with the positive experiences expressed by various people either following Cardas' recommendations or the experienced ears of someone else.  I only saw one "before and after" measurement curve presented (albeit without much resolution, and without any time dimension).  So I'm just curious... has anyone tried to measure the differences in what they are hearing to see what might be responsible for the better experience?

- Doug

Doug,
Measurements could/maybe be a useful tool.  However, measurements cover a lot of ground.
A useful measurement could be to run a frequency sweep thru both speakers at once and then record the results at several different places in the room and then compare.
However, how a frequency scan just thru the speakers correlates to the audio system playing music is????????

Steve

[DougSmith]

I was thinking waterfall plots... combination of impulse and frequency response.. This might reveal what folks are commenting on w.r.t bass response and clarity/imaging.  Not sure really - just a thought.

- Doug

[jimdgoulding]

I'm not so sure that one set of contrasting real room measurements translates all that well to another given the variables of our rooms.  Help me out, Doug.  And that about sizes up what I am taking away from this discussion.  Take Tim, we mates, BTW.  I've been his guest (expect to be again, Tim-son) and as such I didn't think it was appropriate for me to have commented critically at the time.  But, as it's all moot, now, think I'll give it a go.  Cardas or whatever, I thought Tim's speakers were too far out into the room.  Thought his high end and bass on occasion was swamping his midrange.  There wasn't enough body or bloom in the midband, I thought.  And his stage was too narrow.  Not as panoramic as it could be.  And when something is amiss at frequency extremes, speakers call undue attention to themselves.  Tim's room has a lot in common with Laura's and with her previous placement.  Both are large rooms with cathedral ceilngs if different in execution.  Think it's possible I was hearing a touch of what Laura was hearing previously.

If we have the flexibility, how you place your speakers in your room is able to get you an ideal relationship of direct and reflected information to create or reveal full bodied and separated out precise and round images (true to life many times) with spaciousness that is dimensionally lifelike (words fail me, bugger all, ok and duh).  Frequency response can change, too, for better or worse, as I believe I heard in Tim's room previously.  That takes some work and play, agreed.  BTW, Tim, have you given thought to putting you speaks in the other end of your room where the walls are more uniform?  I know you've put a lot of time and dinero where they are.  It's just something I've thought about cause of your open stairwell.  Back on topic, I'm stickin to my guns that where you sit matters.  If you are sitting within an equilateral triangle and your speakers are out from the walls your stage will open up wider and deeper.  If you are sitting further way, images become more present (uh, slightly less ethereal) and you get more dynamic punch (around here).  I'm thinkin that is because waveforms are room loading differently with where I'm sitting and, I suspect, where you are sitting.  In my case with the speakers out from my walls in my room, I can verify this by moving my head.  My standard with where my speakers sit is that the legs of my triangle between me and my speaks is 8" longer then the width of the speaks.  I'm partial to this sound most, overall. 

A person may argue that the room should not be a part of the equation, that reverb or ambience is in the recording.  Our rooms are real world and do have an effect, sorry.  But, our room can be our best friend and I'm starting to believe it is not the same for small and large rooms even if everything else is the same.  Everything shouldn't be the same in this case . . Small rooms would overload the sound of large speakers with deep bass and small speakers in a large room couldn't pressurize the room satisfactorily.  Tim and Laura's speakers are not small, but their rooms are so large(?).  Both sets of my old and larger speakers couldn't gimme the slam or room pressurization I'm getting today in their much larger settings.  Or, image so palpably.

Where Tim and Laura had their speakers previously would not sound good to me (did not, in Tim's case).  They need to be nearer walls to flesh out tonally and bodily.  That's what I believe their new placement is giving them and with where they are sitting.  I'm gettin this but I sit closer but my speakers and my room is much smaller.  The three of us sit out a good distance from the wall behind us like most of you, I'm sure.   

So, I'm with Windchaser and Robin in thinking that any formula has to be flexible and that the/our senses are the thing.  MS might be better than Cardas in some rooms and being flexible is its calling card.  One thing tho I see in the Cardas diagrams is that is the seated postion is invariably closer to the plane of the speaks.  More like me.  Smaller speakers with tightly configured drivers, tho (have to be in my space).

Timmy, when I come over, I'll be expecting to get some roundness to images that I surmise your new placement will allow, also.