[satfrat]

Back in the old days, all speakers had wide front baffles and could be placed
close to the back wall.

Along came dome tweeters and narrow baffles and room reflections became part of the mix, and speaker positioning became important.

Finally "proof," of MS verses Cardas* would be before and after measurements.


* Laura never had her speakers in the recommended Cardas position.

Maybe for you but for myself, the final proof as to the Master Set's worth would be my own ears and listening preferences as it was with both Laura and Jake. But measurements would be an interesting sidenote. 
 
Cheers,
Robin
 

[jimdgoulding]

Maybe for you but for myself, the final proof as to the Master Set's worth would be my own ears and listening preferences as it was with both Laura and Jake. But measurements would be an interesting sidenote. 
 
Cheers,
Robin

Robin-  I think what you said about listening preferences and tastes is the last arbitrator.  And that's perfectly cool.  We're box swapping and tweaking to try at get more communion with our music and what that does for us in the end.  I would hope so, anyways.  Not many speakers these days are designed for near wall placement.  I think Lou is being kind.  I imagine that what is of importance from his point of view is that his customer is happy.  Are Laura's speakers in the MS position as flat or image as well as they are capable?  I have trouble believing so cause of the near wall placement.  Something to consider, tho, is where she and Jake were sitting (more about that in a minute) and I don't think that's gonna change.  It's a multi purpose room and that's a large sofa that needs to be where it needs to be.  Oh, and yes, let me be clear, I think that where you sit in a given space matters and that MS is actually playing to that in spite of someone saying it's not.  With her old placement, I had suggested that Laura move closer to the plane of her speaks.  Hi, Laura. 

I remember a band leader telling the audience in a club that people sitting on the back wall should move forward cause the bass would be too powerful.  Laura (and Jake) were not or are not sitting close to a rear wall, but the speakers are.  Same prinicple is at play.  I think Lou's speakers are designed to deliver what they're designed to deliver in a freer standing position.  But, season to taste, by all means.  Where they were in Laura's room previously they may have sounded anemic comparatively speaking.  Rooms do have characteristics.  And where they are now is much better given other things.  In my room, 54" out from the front wall sounds pretty linear down to the lowest open string of a bass fiddle.  Bass drums have impact, yessir, but still have focus.  But that's my room (and we've, my speakers and I, have been around in it awhile) and where I sit in it.  For someone to say that this doesn't matter says to me something is wrong with their opinion. 

Where Laura sits and where her speakers are now is probably more to a equilateral triangle.  That's a good thing.  Where her speakers are now is doing something to her (and Jake's) liking, we know that.  You go, girl. 

What chaps me are statements like "forget what you've heard about speaker placement cause it's all wrong" and where you sit shouldn't or doesn't matter.  To me this is self serving rhetoric and a disservice to a lot of learned minds (including my own experience). 

Anywho, Laura's speaker placement needed tweaking and Laura is a happier camper.  I empathize with a better experience of music, and sensual weighs in very, very high. 

[Daedalus Audio]

Robin-  I think what you said about listening preferences and tastes is the last arbitrator.  And that's perfectly cool.  We're box swapping and tweaking to try at get more communion with our music and what that does for us in the end.  I would hope so, anyways.  Not many speakers these days are designed for near wall placement.  I think Lou is being kind.  I imagine that what is of importance from his point of view is that his customer is happy.  Are Laura's speakers in the MS position as flat or image as well as they are capable?  I have trouble believing so cause of the near wall placement.  Something to consider, tho, is where she and Jake were sitting (more about that in a minute) and I don't think that's gonna change.  It's a multi purpose room and that's a large sofa that needs to be where it needs to be.  Oh, and yes, let me be clear, I think that where you sit in a given space matters and that MS is actually playing to that in spite of someone saying it's not.  With her old placement, I had suggested that Laura move closer to the plane of her speaks.  Hi, Laura. 

I remember a band leader telling the audience in a club that people sitting on the back wall should move forward cause the bass would be too powerful.  Laura (and Jake) were not or are not sitting close to a rear wall, but the speakers are.  Same prinicple is at play.  I think Lou's speakers are designed to deliver what they're designed to deliver in a freer standing position.  But, season to taste, by all means.  Where they were in Laura's room previously they may have sounded anemic comparatively speaking.  Rooms do have characteristics.  And where they are now is much better given other things.  In my room, 54" out from the front wall sounds pretty linear down to the lowest open string of a bass fiddle.  Bass drums have impact, yessir, but still have focus.  But that's my room (and we've, my speakers and I, have been around in it awhile) and where I sit in it.  For someone to say that this doesn't matter says to me something is wrong with their opinion. 

Where Laura sits and where her speakers are now is probably more to a equilateral triangle.  That's a good thing.  Where her speakers are now is doing something to her (and Jake's) liking, we know that.  You go, girl. 

What chaps me are statements like "forget what you've heard about speaker placement cause it's all wrong" and where you sit shouldn't or doesn't matter.  To me this is self serving rhetoric and a disservice to a lot of learned minds (including my own experience). 

Anywho, Laura's speaker placement needed tweaking and Laura is a happier camper.  I empathize with a better experience of music, and sensual weighs in very, very high.

Jim,  couple of quick notes...I agree with you in that bottom line is preference etc.  I do want to say that none of my statements were simply being kind, I'm a big fan of being a kind person though I rarely succeed. btw ever see 'Harvey'? my favorite movie.
 anyhow, I was being sincere in all I have said.   room and speaker interaction is very complicated to say the least and I like to keep an open mind on this.  I know that my speakers for one can function very well close to the walls, but the real variable is the room and it's shape, construction, openings etc.

 Jim in your room with your speakers a certain placement works and it may work for a lot of situations,  though I don't think you would make hard fast rules based on that to apply to all situations?

as a performer who has also done live sound for bands I can say that as a rule of thumb the rear wall is usually (not always) boomy and worse, but live venues and sound is very, very different from hi -fi in a house, the rules for one do not necessarily translate to the other.

I said this before, if Laura says there is a real improvement I'll take her word. Anyone who knows her knows that she is not easily swayed with feel good decisions. Laura told me one reason she invited Jake was to have another set of ears that had no interest in the outcome.  anyhow I'm not jumping on any bandwagons for anyone, but the whole MS concept makes a lot of sense to me and seems  to have room for adjusting to each unique room/system without too many preconceptions.  there are a lot of ways to skin a cat and no one here is necessarily wrong.

I'm a bit rushed today so I hope nothing I've said annoys anyone...
thanks,
lou

[jimdgoulding]

I take Laura at her word, too, hoss, absolutely.  Jake, too.  Not writing about that.  Laura likes her sound better than ever.  Far out.  So, can we expect that you'll be doing MS at your next show?  You make a fine product I know that first hand.  Of course, it is adaptable to different environs and humans.  A great speaker necessarily would if it wants to find a home.  You cool.

The rules of a room and a live venue do not necessarily translate to quote you.  I take it that means sometimes they can.  And I'll give you an example, rectangular shaped room(s), unamplified music, sympathetic recording technique.  The stage and the hall would be different in a room with speakers out from walls.  I think a reasonable idea would be to integrate that for realism.  Think speakers need to have room to breathe to do that.  More room that I've seen in any MS photo.  Flatten out the frequency response, too.  Sure, this doesn't matter all the time.  I was listening to a quintet the other night and the piano was totally unrealistically wide but bass and drums were right as rain.  Great tone, tho, all around.  I have a lot of recordings that are pretty truthful, tho.

I'm sure Laura and Jake and I would be in agreement most definitely on quite a few tunes.  Both here and there.  I'm just tryin to keep it real is all.

Think you're responding, Lou, to the way I sorta painted you in this discussion.  I was painting myself, I suppose, were I you.  Stupid of me I know.  Pardon that.  Don't let me make a turkey out of you by answering that MS question.  Jim

[Daedalus Audio]

all is good Jim, I'll even buy ya a beer at the next show, eh? as for the room there,,,like in "Jaws"  I'll just bring bigger speakers this year, anyhow I've been into using Tibetan prayer bowls for room treatment lately....

[jimdgoulding]

all is good Jim, I'll even buy ya a beer at the next show, eh? as for the room there,,,like in "Jaws"  I'll just bring bigger speakers this year, anyhow I've been into using Tibetan prayer bowls for room treatment lately....

Think I'll have mine in a glass.  Thanks, Lou.

[satfrat]

Think I'll have mine in a glass.  Thanks, Lou.

Wanta "keep it real" Jim? Well you'll just need to demo a Master Set in your system for yourself,,,, then you got yur real.    Everything else is just a conjecture on yur part,,, nuthin' real about that at all. 
 
Cheers,
Robin

[jimdgoulding]

Wanta "keep it real" Jim? Well you'll just need to demo a Master Set in your system for yourself,,,, then you got yur real.    Everything else is just a conjecture on yur part,,, nuthin' real about that at all. 
 
Cheers,
Robin

I might get around to doin that but I'm just not motivated enough.  Can't imagine what could be gained in my case.  Dumb down happy, I guess.  But, damn, brother man, it can get pretty real around here.  Real enough in as many ways as an old student of the game can tell.  I meant keepin the discussion real.

[satfrat]

I might get around to doin that but I'm just not motivated enough.  Can't imagine what could be gained in my case.  Dumb down happy, I guess.  But, damn, brother man, it can get pretty real around here.  Real enough in as many ways as an old student of the game can tell.

I don't see myself ever trying it either as I'm very happy with my system as-is. But I'd love an opportunity to demo someone elses system just to get a feel of what can be. I don't dismiss anything til I've sampled it first, be it audio, food or women.    Maybe just wishful thinking on that last one. 
 
Cheers,
Robin

[jimdgoulding]

Me, too.  Especially Laura's system.

[markC]

 I don't dismiss anything til I've sampled it first, be it audio, food or women.    Maybe just wishful thinking on that last one. 
 
Cheers,
Robin

Audio or women, Get your wallet out. @ least with audio, you can usually sample for free.
Good thing my wife never visits here!

[jimdgoulding]

Damn, Markie, those are some wicked looking speakers in your gallery. 

[bmckenney]

I for one would have to hear Laura's placement to believe it.   The current speaker placement looks wrong, like it can't work, like its breaking too many beliefs I hold.  That spread just looks way too far apart and theres not enough room off the front wall.  I guess you gotta hear it, not see it.

I would be quite stunned if that placement resulted in similar spatial sound compared to Cardas placement where the speakers are closer together and further off the front wall.  Dimensionally it has to sound very different.  Frequency response aside.  I'm just talking about sound stage dimensions.

Bryan

[jimdgoulding]

I for one would have to hear Laura's placement to believe it.   The current speaker placement looks wrong, like it can't work, like its breaking too many beliefs I hold.  That spread just looks way too far apart and theres not enough room off the front wall.  I guess you gotta hear it, not see it.

I would be quite stunned if that placement resulted in similar spatial sound compared to Cardas placement where the speakers are closer together and further off the front wall.  Dimensionally it has to sound very different.  Frequency response aside.  I'm just talking about sound stage dimensions.

Bryan

Me too, B, in case you hadn't noticed.  And a couple other guys.  They're not going to sound like Cardas placement.  And the way that kind of placement radiates waveforms into a room and what can be realized from that may be of less importance to subscribers of MS cause it ain't gonna be the same, we don't think, do we.  But somethin is very persuasive about MS.  I think I understand it but would like take a bath in it, so to speak.  Bring it on!  But I can't bring my own self to do it.

[bmckenney]

Jim, I was recently in a dealer room, their so-called "A" room with the big gear in it.  The speakers were spread very far apart and the sound was pathetic.  But this was not a MS placement, but it had one similar trait.  I could tell this system was going to suck just by looking at the speaker placement.  Its pretty easy to have an eye for speaker placement, as if you can just tell if it's going to work or not just by looking at it.  I believe I can tell if a system will sound good or not just by looking at it and a MS placement does not inspire confidence from my point of view.  To date, I haven't been proven wrong about speaker placement.  But I'm open it being wrong.  Sure wish I could hear this type of setup.

Bryan

[vinyl_guy]

I for one would have to hear Laura's placement to believe it.   The current speaker placement looks wrong, like it can't work, like its breaking too many beliefs I hold.  That spread just looks way too far apart and theres not enough room off the front wall.  I guess you gotta hear it, not see it.

It definitely is one of those hearing is believing and trust your ears, not your eyes things.

I would be quite stunned if that placement resulted in similar spatial sound compared to Cardas placement where the speakers are closer together and further off the front wall.  Dimensionally it has to sound very different.  Frequency response aside.  I'm just talking about sound stage dimensions.

Bryan

Bryan,

So far, 5 people have heard the before and after--me, Rod, Jake and my two friends who have been listening to my system an average of once every 10 days over the past 4 1/2 years. Every one of us will testify that the sound after the Master Set is better in every respect over the modified Cardas as shown in the pictures Robin posted from my gallery. The imaging is better, the sound is better integrated from top to bottom, the frequency response is definitely better, there is great clarity and detail, the vocals, especially female vocals, are more natural and less strident, the soundstage is 3-dimensional and the music can be played at a louder volume without hurting one's ears or it seeming "too loud."

You are correct that dimensionally the Master Set position is different, but to my ears, and the ears of the others who have heard the before and after sound, it also is much better--much more 3-dimensional than before with better imaging and focus. Close your eyes and the speakers disappear, and you can pick out the instruments across the wide soundstage in front of you. As I posted earlier, the sound is concert hall like and very emotionally engaging.

If you ever find yourself near the Inland NW of the USA, please let me know and I will invite you over for dinner and a long listening session. Bring your favorite discs, either small shiny plastic ones or the black vinyl variety. You too, Jim 

Laura

[jimdgoulding]

I'm thinkin Laura has a big room and is utilizing it to grand effect.  I'm only thinkin, mind you.  I wanna sit where you're sittin, lady.

[jhm731]

the Master Set is better in every respect over the modified Cardas as shown in the pictures Robin posted from my gallery.
Laura

Laura-

The original subject of this thread is:

"Do you guys subscribe to Cardas math for speaker distance from front wall"

You and your friends have never heard your speakers in unmodified Cardas postions, so saying MS sounds better "the modified Cardas," proves nothing about the Cardas math.

Before I'd pay someone $500. to perform an MS set up, I would have borrowed a longer set of speaker cables and tried the unmodified Cardas postions.

BTW,with that big TV between your speakers, it doesn't surprise me that moving your speakers closer to the side walls improved your soundstage/imaging.

Dan

[vinyl_guy]

Before I'd pay someone $500. to perform an MS set up, I would have borrowed a longer set of speaker cables and tried the unmodified Cardas postions.

Dan

That would certainly be your right and your choice. I think it is the best $500 I have ever spent on improving the sound of my system.

Laura

[mjosef]

Guys...remember her room has a cathedral ceiling...or so I see from the photos.