[JakeJ]

Hey Jake-  Hi.  I, too, think the room is a component of the system as well as speaker placement if that wasn't clear.  This will determine the amount of room gain and quality of imaging we get.  I'm not pure Cardas* but nearer that than MS as I understand it and for reasons you have experienced and described so aptly.

In the second picture of Dan's room it appears to me that the speakers are out a good ways from the front wall.  Looks to me that the listening position is about mid way into the room.  My guess is that he is getting good loading from the front end of his room.  Loading that's kind to frequency response and imaging.  I'd likely put the speakers a little nearer together thinking that they would disappear even more and allow a stage to develop freer of speaker position and freer of walls.  And I would sit nearer but mindful of the fact that it is a tall speaker with multiple drivers.  I like a wall of sound but I also like a hall of sound depending on the recording.  Just want to give a recording as much freedom as I can.  I use the room, too, with this in mind.

Hi Jim,

I understand where you're coming from.  In a way you're shooting for the best of both worlds and your room/speaker combination is different as is Laura's, mine, and everyone else's.  Each of us tries to do the best we can with what we have.  I'm still searching, still learning.
 

Right on, empirical is what you observe but begats the question to me as compared to what?  I've been in a lot of venues and sat at different distances from the stage.  The memory of this is my reference point.  High fidelity to me means truth to the source.  And that would include the setting for on location recordings.  Our rooms and speaker placement are a source themselves and I just want mine to be in service to the event.  So, I use speaker placement and room loading pretty discreetly.

In this case, it is the comparison of before and after.  I don't believe it was implied to be any more than that.

You and Laura should get a hold of a copy of Rachmaninoff's Symphonic Dances with The Dallas Symphony.  The CD is dryer and more staid than the vinyl version in my system, so I would recommend the latter.  I believe this is available on a pressing made in Europe.  Toni Rambold would know.  The reason I am recommending this will be obvious to you on first listen (turn it up!).  I think the dynamics will be served very nicely by Laura's MS placement.  There is not much depth of field on this recording so it should all be upside.

Thanks for the recommendation!  I'm always open to new recordings that fit my musical tastes.  Any recs for ones that offer three dimensional imaging in spades?

* my speaks are nearer the front wall than Laura had hers and my room is a bunch smaller.  Laura's room is so large things may have sounded a little threadbare where she had them.  But, I'm sure they don't now and I expect that is a compelling virtue of her new placement.

The pre-MS position wasn't so much "threadbare", if I understand your reference as thin sounding, but it was treble prominent due to the fact that the two lowest octaves were MIA.  After Rod was done the top to bottom balance was truly fantastic.  Please note that Lou specs the low end of the DA1.1 (Laura's speakers) as 28 Hz.  WikiAnswers states the typical lowest note produced by a pipe organ as CCCC (16.4 Hz) which we could hear post MS.  However, a select few have 64 foot pipes that produce CCCCC (8.2 Hz).  My reference for this information is here.

[BikeWNC]

[quote author=JakeJ
The pre-MS position wasn't so much "threadbare", if I understand your reference as thin sounding, but it was treble prominent due to the fact that the two lowest octaves were MIA.  After Rod was done the top to bottom balance was truly fantastic.  Please note that Lou specs the low end of the DA1.1 (Laura's speakers) as 28 Hz.  WikiAnswers states the typical lowest note produced by a pipe organ as CCCC (16.4 Hz) which we could hear post MS.  However, a select few have 64 foot pipes that produce CCCCC (8.2 Hz).  My reference for this information is http://wiki.answers.com/Q/The_lowest_frequecy_note_of_an_organ_is_16.4_Hz._
What_is_the_length_of_the_shortest_open_organ_pipe_that_will_resonate_at_this_frequency
[/quote]

I think one can feel 16Hz and especially 8Hz more than hear it.  But whatever, getting the lower 2 octaves back into the mix is important.  I intend to try a MS with my speakers once I replace the large TV between the speakers with a flat screen.  It's free to try.  I doubt I'll get it perfect on my own but hey, I don't mind trying.

[flintstone]

I think one can feel 16Hz and especially 8Hz more than hear it.  But whatever, getting the lower 2 octaves back into the mix is important.  I intend to try a MS with my speakers once I replace the large TV between the speakers with a flat screen.  It's free to try.  I doubt I'll get it perfect on my own but hey, I don't mind trying.

Two octaves covers a lot of freq (20-80hz).....I suspect a good amount of exaggeration here 



Dave

[JakeJ]

Umm...so C₀ to C₂ equals 16.35 Hz to 65.41 Hz and we were hearing good bass output to roughly 60 Hz before Rod moved the speakers and were clearly hearing the lowest pedal note of a pipe organ after he was done how does that not equate to two octaves lower?

Musical scale to Hz conversion here.

Granted we took no measurements and it's likely the output that low wasn't equal to notes above the speaker's rated lower limit we could clearly hear the notes and it certainly adds to the musical experience Laura now enjoys.

[flintstone]

Umm...so C₀ to C₂ equals 16.35 Hz to 65.41 Hz and we were hearing good bass output to roughly 60 Hz before Rod moved the speakers and were clearly hearing the lowest pedal note of a pipe organ after he was done how does that not equate to two octaves lower?

Musical scale to Hz conversion here.

Granted we took no measurements and it's likely the output that low wasn't equal to notes above the speaker's rated lower limit we could clearly hear the notes and it certainly adds to the musical experience Laura now enjoys.

Well, I wasn't knocking the setup method....I don't like to knock things I have no experience with.  Laura said her system sounds much better than before...and she should know better than anyone 

My point was only regarding the two octave gain....I don't think any setup method would allow that, and I think before and after measurements would show this.


Dave

[satfrat]

Well, I wasn't knocking the setup method....I don't like to knock things I have no experience with. 
Dave

I both congratulate and commend you for both saying and doing that Dave. 
 
Cheers,
Robin

[JakeJ]

Well, I wasn't knocking the setup method....I don't like to knock things I have no experience with.  Laura said her system sounds much better than before...and she should know better than anyone 

My point was only regarding the two octave gain....I don't think any setup method would allow that, and I think before and after measurements would show this.


Dave

Fair enough.  I will concede that it would have been better to take measurements but I don't possess the equipment necessary to do that...except for my ears and they are always in question. 

[Daedalus Audio]

Jake, I'm glad you didn't take measurements, usually one doesn't have a controlled environment or the right tools and the 'measurements' can confuse our best test equipment... our ears. I believe there are subtle aspects of sound that don't show up on a standard response curve,  but trained ears can tell what 'feels' right. so call it subjective, I'm ok with that, bottom line is that most of what audio is about is subjective opinions that look like voodoo to outsiders.

 I've heard Laura's room and of course know the system very well. the room has always sounded very good, though she wasn't getting the full bass extension the system is capable of. my guess would have been good to the 40's, so I'll easily grant an octave, but by better loading/pressurizing the room thereby increasing 'slam', that could feel like two octaves... good enough for me.

btw, I'm not condemning measurements at all, obviously they are a big part of my design process, just saying there's a place for trusting our ears as test equipment and I think this type of room tuning is one of those areas.
thanks, lou

[vinyl_lady]

Laura- Empirical evidence?  In our hobby?

Jim,

I was only comparing what I heard or didn't hear in the position the speakers were in before Rod started the Master Set process with what I heard during and when the Set was finished. Between those two positions, I had emperical evidence--sight and sound--of the new location and the amazing improvement in sound I heard. I did not mean to imply any more than that.

Laura

[vinyl_lady]

Laura,
Did your depth of field and sounds that appear to the outside of your spkrs change for the better after MS?

Steve,

Yes they did. My soundstage is deeper despite the HDTV between the speakers that sticks out 25" from the wall and the width of the soundstage is phenomenal. I close my eyes and the speakers completely disappear with sound. I had friends over last night for dinner and they both commented about the 3 dimensional sound they were hearing.

Laura

[vinyl_lady]

I want images to populate the front end of my room wherever they want to and to have a life of their own and be incandescent.  And they do.

Jim, I have that same sensation after the Master Set. A very 3 dimensional sound that is emotionally engaging with a room-width soundstage--a sense as you say of listening to the music and not to the speakers. as I have indicated, the improvement is not subtle. I am getting improved frquency response and real sense of air around the instruments. The biggest difference is that I kow have all the bass notes in my room. I used to hear them when I was upstairs (through the loft opening near the peak of the ceiling) in the hallway going to my bedroom, but I couldn't find those same notes in my listening room, unitl now. The imaging is supurb too.

Right on, empirical is what you observe but begats the question to me as compared to what?

I think I answered this in an earlier post. The comparison was between the pre and post Master Set position, which I observed and heard--nothing more.
 

You and Laura should get a hold of a copy of Rachmaninoff's Symphonic Dances with The Dallas Symphony.  The CD is dryer and more staid than the vinyl version in my system, so I would recommend the latter.  I believe this is available on a pressing made in Europe.  Toni Rambold would know.  The reason I am recommending this will be obvious to you on first listen (turn it up!).  I think the dynamics will be served very nicely by Laura's MS placement.  There is not much depth of field on this recording so it should all be upside.

Thanks for the recommendation. This will be expanding my musical collection as the only symphonic music I have now is Handel's Messiah. I enjoyed listening to Peer Gynt that Jake brought and Rod had some nice syphmphonic music. I guess it's time I ventured out beyond rock n roll

Laura's room is so large things may have sounded a little threadbare where she had them.  But, I'm sure they don't now and I expect that is a compelling virtue of her new placement.

I wouldn't call it threadbare. The sound was good, I just wasn't getting full bass extension that my electronics and speakers are capable of delivering. I am now. Female vocals were a little harsh before, but not now. I am enjoying my music more than I have in a long, long time

Laura

[vinyl_lady]

Two octaves covers a lot of freq (20-80hz).....I suspect a good amount of exaggeration here 

Dave

Dave,

No intent to exaggerate and as Jake mentioned, we didn't take measurements, and while it was probably only one octive of bass, it sure seemed like two octives. As I have posted earlier, the lower bass notes were there (I heard them in other parts of my house), but my pre Master Set location was cancelling out the lowest bass notes. After the Set, I am  hearing full bass extension in my listening room--the missing notes are there
I have listened to a lot of familiar music since Saturday afternoon and it has never sounded better in my system.

Laura

[Nyal Mellor]

Maybe the speaker or listening position got moved out of a room mode null? 

[satfrat]

Maybe the speaker or listening position got moved out of a room mode null? 

From what I gather, the listening postion has nothing to do with it. It's my feeling that it's all about getting the loudspeakers and the room to work together so that listening position isn't as critical as it is with a standard Cardas setup. I think it's all about getting the best acoustics out of a given envirement w/o all the acoustic bandades. Of course I could be all wrong as I'm only making an assumption from what I've read about Master Set. 
 
Cheers,
Robin

[vinyl_lady]

From what I gather, the listening postion has nothing to do with it. It's my feeling that it's all about getting the loudspeakers and the room to work together so that listening position isn't as critical as it is with a standard Cardas setup. I think it's all about getting the best acoustics out of a given envirement w/o all the acoustic bandades. Of course I could be all wrong as I'm only making an assumption from what I've read about Master Set. 
 
Cheers,
Robin

Robin,

You are correct, the listening position has nothing to do with it. Before the Master Set, it didn't matter where I was in the listening room, those lower bass notes were not present in the room and the female vocals were a little strident. After the Set, the speaker location is integrated with the room and all of the treatments, furniture, etc. The sound is concert hall-like no matter where you are in the room. The so called sweet spot from the couch is essentially the entire width of the room now. It was more than just recovering the lower bass notes, the sound is better integrated from top to bottom with better clarity and detail. The overall character of the sound is more natural. I think it is one of those things where hearing is believing.

I had two friends over for dinner (bbq baby backs with Skaer Sauce and Copper River Salmon from AK), and listening Sunday night. Both are very familiar with the sound of my system over the past 4 1/2 years as we get together a couple of times per month to dine and listen. They knew I had Rod re-set my speakers, but knew nothing about the results before we started listening to music. I wanted to see if they heard any difference without any influence or comments from me. Before the Master Set, Diane would always ask me to turn the volume down because she found herself having to yell to carry on a conversation. She also thought the sound was good, but felt the voices, especially female voices were a little strident.

We sat on my couch eating on TV trays and listening to lots of vinyl (Jennifer Warnes; Leonard Cohen; Eagles; The Decemberists; The New Pornographers; Lindsey Buckingham; Fleetwood Mac; Neil Young). About an hour into our listening session I asked them if they could tell any difference in the sound. Diane immediately said that she noticed we were carrying on a conversation in normal speaking volumes and not once had she asked me to turn the volume down. I told her the volume setting was actually a little louder than before the Set. Both said the speakers seemed to disappear when they closed their eyes and they noticed greater, clarity detail and balance in the sound. Diane said the music seemed to float in front of us and she felt like we were in a concert hall. She said the stridency in the female voacals had disappeared too. Carolyn commented about hearing more detail in the music and that room seemed to be filled with sound. She said it did not seem like the music was coming from the speakers, but rather from a room width soundstage.

Needless to say, I am enjoying my music more than ever and at times feeling like I am rediscovering my collection.

Laura

[JakeJ]

vinyl_lady beat me to the punch but Robin is spot on.  Because the speakers are now fully integrated with the room the seating position is almost a moot point.  When I strolled across the room behind the couch the sound was very well equalized and sound from the right speaker is balanced with that of the left even when standing against the left wall.

JakeJ

[pumpkinman]

Hi Laura There will always be naysayers but the proof is in the pudding.
I never thought speaker wire could make a diff. till I heard it for myself
Your write up was not only informative but fun........Bill
 

[flintstone]

Dave,

No intent to exaggerate and as Jake mentioned, we didn't take measurements, and while it was probably only one octive of bass, it sure seemed like two octives. As I have posted earlier, the lower bass notes were there (I heard them in other parts of my house), but my pre Master Set location was cancelling out the lowest bass notes. After the Set, I am  hearing full bass extension in my listening room--the missing notes are there
I have listened to a lot of familiar music since Saturday afternoon and it has never sounded better in my system.

Laura

Thanks Laura, I understand. I'm very happy for you...you have a nice room, and some great gear. Getting that bottom octave singing like it should makes your whole music collection a new listening experience 


Dave

[vinyl_lady]

Thanks Laura, I understand. I'm very happy for you...you have a nice room, and some great gear. Getting that bottom octave singing like it should makes your whole music collection a new listening experience 


Dave

Thanks Dave!

I just took a look at your gallery--very nice room and set up with some great gear too.

[jhm731]

Hi Laura There will always be naysayers but the proof is in the pudding.
I never thought speaker wire could make a diff. till I heard it for myself
Your write up was not only informative but fun........Bill
 

Back in the old days, all speakers had wide front baffles and could be placed
close to the back wall.

Along came dome tweeters and narrow baffles and room reflections became part of the mix, and speaker positioning became important.

Finally "proof," of MS verses Cardas* would be before and after measurements.


* Laura never had her speakers in the recommended Cardas position.