[Crimson]

Where did my post go?  Why was it deleted?

Which post are you referring to? Nothing has been deleted.

[jtwrace]

Where did my post go?  Why was it deleted?

Which post are you referring to? Nothing has been deleted.

Really?  hmm.  I posted about the upsample conversion in Amarra.  That's all!

[Crimson]

Where did my post go?  Why was it deleted?

Which post are you referring to? Nothing has been deleted.

Really?  hmm.  I posted about the upsample conversion in Amarra.  That's all!

Well, it's not here or in the IGW. Try posting again.

[jtwrace]

Where did my post go?  Why was it deleted?

Which post are you referring to? Nothing has been deleted.

Really?  hmm.  I posted about the upsample conversion in Amarra.  That's all!

Well, it's not here or in the IGW. Try posting again.

OK.  No prob.  I kinda did above...

[ted_b]

Different thread/different Circle, dude!   
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=68494.msg662258#msg662258

[jtwrace]

Different thread/different Circle, dude!   
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=68494.msg662258#msg662258

Damn!  I feel like a dumb ass...

[drubin]

Over the weekend, I compared my Macbook Amarra(Ver.3170) set up to the same tracks(16/44.1 & 24/96) played back via PS Audio PWT.

Preferred the SQ of the PWT.

Yes, I know the PWT isn't a music server, but I don't mind getting up to change disks if it sounds
better.

Will you say more about this -- how would you describe the sonic differences between the two?

And what was the system configuration re: interface from computer/PWT to DAC, and which DAC?

TIA.

-Dan

[Ciamara]

Yes please .... I noticed the same post over on CA, and it would be helpful to know what your setup was.  Thank you.

[jhm731]

Over the weekend, I compared my Macbook Amarra(Ver.3170) set up to the same tracks(16/44.1 & 24/96) played back via PS Audio PWT.

Preferred the SQ of the PWT.

Yes, I know the PWT isn't a music server, but I don't mind getting up to change disks if it sounds
better.

Will you say more about this -- how would you describe the sonic differences between the two?

And what was the system configuration re: interface from computer/PWT to DAC, and which DAC?

TIA.

-Dan

Amarra(ver.3170) loaded on a Macbook with 4 gb ram and a 60 gb OCZ Vertex SSD connected with a Monster Cable iCable.

PWT connected with an Audience Au 24 AES/EBU.

Both were connected to my Aberdeen Signature TacT S2150 which powers a pair of Volent VL-2s. The TacT has multiple digital inputs, so no cable switching was necessary. Levels were matched.

PWT is plugged into a RSA Haley. The TacT is plugged into a RSA Duke.

Files were ripped using DVD Audio Extractor or Audiograbber on a
Dell Optiplex 745. 24/96 files were burnt onto DVD-R with Nero 9.0.

Top to bottom the PWT sounds more natural and relaxed. Soundstage
is more open and 3D.

[Ciamara]

Well there is the problem.  This is hardly a fair comparison.  You are relying on a very low-quality DAC in the Macbook.  You are running analog from this low quality DAC into your system.  A fair comparison would be to use hardware approved by Amarra connected by FireWire or USB.  Only then can you draw conclusions.

[ted_b]

Well there is the problem.  This is hardly a fair comparison.  You are relying on a very low-quality DAC in the Macbook.  You are running analog from this low quality DAC into your system.  A fair comparison would be to use hardware approved by Amarra connected by FireWire or USB.  Only then can you draw conclusions.

I don't read that at all.  In both cases he's using his modded Tact DAC (not exactly low-quality, but regardless of how you feel, both transports used same DAC).  The only real external variable I see is the Audience AU24 cable (very good) vs the Monster icable (dunno) as well as AES/EBU vs USB or coax/toslink.

[Ciamara]

The Monster cable he mentions is an analog cable.  It is connects to the low quality DAC that comes standard with the Macbook via a 1/8" mini-stereo jack and sends an analog signal (already degraded by this point) into the Tact DAC.  I looked up the Tact DAC, as I am not familiar with it.  This DAC accepts analog inputs.

So, for the Amarra side of the comparison, the digital data is being converted to analog by the Macbook's cheapo DAC, then sent as analog to the Tact DAC, where it is presumably converted back to digital before being converted to analog again (?).  No wonder the sound is not pleasing.  You can't use Amarra without an approved DAC connected properly.  This comparison is not valid. 

Please try using a proper interface with your Macbook and have that feed your analog system directly, without going through the Tact DAC. 

One slight improvement that you could try for fun and for very little money would be to buy the special optical cable for the Mac Book.  You may or may not know this, but the 1/8" minijack on the Macbook actually outputs both analog and digital.  So you could run SPDIF/Optical using a special cable directly to the SPDIF RCA input on the Tact DAC.  While this is NOT approved for Amarra, and therefore still isn't a fair comparison, it should sound a lot better than what you have.  The shortcoming of this setup, though better than what you have tried, is that the Macbook digital interface is subject to a lot of jitter, so unless you have a very good DAC that is good at jitter rejection, you will only get average results.  Better than what you have tried so far, but still only average.  To get the best out of Amarra, you have to use the right hardware.  For a Mac Pro, that means approved PCI, Firewire or USB hardware.  For a Macbook, approved Firewire or USB only.

[ted_b]

that's not my assumption...the Tact takes digital inputs too; if you are correct then it's an absurd comapro with too much d/a/ a/d d/a going on.  But I gotta assume the JHM is not completely computer illiterate     , and that the icable is Monster's toslink variety (Monster calls their toslink and USB cables icables, so its confusing....also their iPod cables....which is what you are assuming I guess).

[Ciamara]

I see .... jhm731, can you please be specific about what you are doing exactly?  Is it Option 1 or Option 2 below?

Option 1 (my prior assumption):
- Amarra/iTunes source
- Audio Midi Setup must be correctly set for sample rate
- ANALOG out from Macbook via 1/8" to stereo RCA inputs on Tact DAC
- Tact DAC analog outputs to analog sound system

Option 2 (ted_b's assumption)"
- Amarra/iTunes source
- Audio Midi Setup must be correctly set for sample rate
- DIGITAL out from Macbook via 1/8" to Optical digital cable (using SPDIF standard for data transmission)
- Optical digital cable connected to optical input on Tact DAC
- Tact DAC analog outputs to analog sound system

Also, as I alluded to earlier, even if we are dealing with Option 2, this is still not a fair comparison. Closer, but still far from fair.  I know because I actually tried this when I upgraded the system in our showroom.  We were using an Apogee Ensemble Firewire interface with Amarra, which I was not fond of.  So I ordered the Lynx AES16e card and a Lavry DA11.  Before the Lynx card showed up, I connected the Lavry DA11 directly to the Mac Pro using an optical/toslink cable.  I was underwhelmed.  The improvement with the Lynx card was very significant.

So ... For reasons I do not want to get into (because I am not smart enough to understand them, let alone explain them), a digital output from the Macbook's DAC is not comparable to the digital output from a high quality digital interface.  It is may be due to a host of issues, including jitter, poor timing, lack of clock data being sent to the DAC, etc., but again, I am not smart enough to explain that end.  All I know is that from heavy listening, you have to use a good interface with Amarra. 

[ted_b]

I use a Macbook (4GB, SSD drive, etc) to the Weiss DAC2 firewire DAC, with Amrra ...via a VRS-recommended GoldX firewire cable...and I find the combination stunning.  So I guess I disagree that a Macbook via digital cable, is a less than optimal setup.  My DAC is native firewire and it doesn't need another interface in the path.

[Crimson]

I think he's referring to the quality of the toslink output of the Mac, which I assume JHM is using going to the TacT.

[Ciamara]

Exactly.  The Firewire interface connection is worlds apart from using the internal sound card in the Macbook.  Since you have the Weiss, try bypassing it and using the DAC inside the Macbook and see how much worse it gets. 

Amarra is, as you say, stunning when properly connected.

[BPT]

The TacT S2150 is a digital power amplifer or sometimes called a power DAC. It accept digital input only via toslink, SPDIF coax or XLR and directly powers the speakers.
Chris H.

[jhm731]

I see .... jhm731, can you please be specific about what you are doing exactly?  Is it Option 1 or Option 2 below?

Option 1 (my prior assumption):
- Amarra/iTunes source
- Audio Midi Setup must be correctly set for sample rate
- ANALOG out from Macbook via 1/8" to stereo RCA inputs on Tact DAC
- Tact DAC analog outputs to analog sound system

Option 2 (ted_b's assumption)"
- Amarra/iTunes source
- Audio Midi Setup must be correctly set for sample rate
- DIGITAL out from Macbook via 1/8" to Optical digital cable (using SPDIF standard for data transmission)
- Optical digital cable connected to optical input on Tact DAC
- Tact DAC analog outputs to analog sound system

Also, as I alluded to earlier, even if we are dealing with Option 2, this is still not a fair comparison. Closer, but still far from fair.  I know because I actually tried this when I upgraded the system in our showroom.  We were using an Apogee Ensemble Firewire interface with Amarra, which I was not fond of.  So I ordered the Lynx AES16e card and a Lavry DA11.  Before the Lynx card showed up, I connected the Lavry DA11 directly to the Mac Pro using an optical/toslink cable.  I was underwhelmed.  The improvement with the Lynx card was very significant.

So ... For reasons I do not want to get into (because I am not smart enough to understand them, let alone explain them), a digital output from the Macbook's DAC is not comparable to the digital output from a high quality digital interface.  It is may be due to a host of issues, including jitter, poor timing, lack of clock data being sent to the DAC, etc., but again, I am not smart enough to explain that end.  All I know is that from heavy listening, you have to use a good interface with Amarra.

Neither.

1. The TacT is a "power DAC," it connects directly to the speakers.

2. The Macbook's DAC is not being used.

3. Both you and ted_b  are assuming problems which don't exist.

I agree that Amarra might perform better with theirs or another DAC or a different digital interface, but I'm not in the market for a new DAC.

IMO, the market for DACs and digital interfaces is changing too rapidly to invest thousands in addition to the cost of the Amarra software right now. 

[Ciamara]

Thank you jhm731.  I don't disagree with your statement "IMO the market for DACs and digital interfaces is changing too rapidly to invest thousands in addition to the cost of the Amarra software right now."  That is the conundrum with digital!  It moves so fast. 

That said, we are talking about comparing two setups, and to suggest that the PWT is better, you should at least ensure the comparison is fair.

Can you please explain the signal chain from iTunes/Amarra through Macbook to the Tact DAC?  What types of connections and settings are you using?  If you are not using the Macbook's DAC, then you are sending a digital signal to the Tact DAC?  If so, how are you doing that?  Optical Toslink?

Please explain ... I agree, assuming is not helpful ... but I do want to get to the bottom of this so we can understand better what is going on.