Shuguang Treasure 'Black Bottle' 6CA7Z and Genalex KT-77's

KCI-JohnP · « **Reply #120 on:** 27 Jul 2009, 09:51 pm »

Hi Lee,

I came here to post about my new Treasure tubes and low and behold you beat me to it-by a few months! I ordered a match quad of KT-88's for my VAC Phi 110 and was surprised that right out of the box they were excellent, can't wait to get more hours on them. I'm sure I'm going to have a few ups & downs as they break in but so far so good!! I love these tubes, worth every dime so far.

Best,
John

cryoparts · « **Reply #121 on:** 28 Jul 2009, 03:57 am »

Yeah, I am still really loving my quad. I've got tons of hours on them now and they continue to impress.

Peace,

Lee

Quote from: KCI-JohnP on 27 Jul 2009, 09:51 pm

Hi Lee,

I came here to post about my new Treasure tubes and low and behold you beat me to it-by a few months! I ordered a match quad of KT-88's for my VAC Phi 110 and was surprised that right out of the box they were excellent, can't wait to get more hours on them. I'm sure I'm going to have a few ups & downs as they break in but so far so good!! I love these tubes, worth every dime so far.

Best,
John

Audioclyde · « **Reply #122 on:** 28 Jul 2009, 12:07 pm »

I've got about 150 hours on my Treasures and really like them a lot! Have about 50 hours on my GL reissue KT-77's and they sing as well---hard for me to keep either quad in the amp for extended burn in time, as I really like both of these tubes. To me they sound more similar than different and both are near the top of my list (need to roll my NOS Tung Sol smooth blackplate 6550's and my RCA blackplate 6l6gc's back in at some point for more comparison, as these 2 are my favorite NOS output tubes for my amp).

Cryo, how do you rate the GL KT77's vs. the Treasures at this point?

Thanks!

cryoparts · « **Reply #123 on:** 28 Jul 2009, 04:57 pm »

Quote from: Audioclyde on 28 Jul 2009, 12:07 pm

I've got about 150 hours on my Treasures and really like them a lot! Have about 50 hours on my GL reissue KT-77's and they sing as well---hard for me to keep either quad in the amp for extended burn in time, as I really like both of these tubes. To me they sound more similar than different and both are near the top of my list (need to roll my NOS Tung Sol smooth blackplate 6550's and my RCA blackplate 6l6gc's back in at some point for more comparison, as these 2 are my favorite NOS output tubes for my amp).

Cryo, how do you rate the GL KT77's vs. the Treasures at this point?

Thanks!

I like the GL's as well. However, the nod goes to the Treasure's from me, they are just a bit quieter, smoother and the inner detail is better.

Peace,

Lee

jcspinks · « **Reply #124 on:** 31 Jul 2009, 04:56 am »

4 6CA7 Treasures are on order for installation in PartsConnexion-Level-1-modded Shanling SP80s, and to be compared to the present NOS 70's-era "Siemens" RFT EL34s. Input and driver tubes are early 40's era NOS RCA 6SN7 and 6SL7. The Shanlings are driving Triangle Naias. Currently an enormous, detailed and luscious sound with great bass pitch definition and power, but I am always looking for more. I recently upgraded to using regenerated AC via the Power Plant Premier with great results: better bass delineation and more refined top end. I also changed the Shanlings to IsoClean Fuses with clearly audible results; again more refinement of the upper end.

The curious thing is that some of the most highly regarded 6SL7s that I have tried (40's Tung Sol, 50's Mullard, 50's Valvo, 50's Fivre) while producing very detailed upper ends, don't quite produce the bass and midrange I am looking for. So after using the "Siemens" for years, I am wondering if the Treasures can provide more of those realms so that these other 6SL7s can be used instead of the Wartime RCAs. We will see the beginnings of that evaluation soon, but with the long break-in, it might take awhile. Could be that the Treasures will simply sound great with the RCAs?

So I am expecting the Treasures any day and will set the bias with my soon-to-arrive SRS Dual-Bias Tool. Previously, the darned amp had to be opened up and a board removed (!) to measure the current despite having pot access from the top!

My first post!

John
Moorpark CA

cryoparts · « **Reply #125 on:** 31 Jul 2009, 05:06 am »

Welcome to AC! Great first post.

Look forward to reading your impressions of the Treasure's.

Peace,

Lee

Quote from: jcspinks on 31 Jul 2009, 04:56 am

4 6CA7 Treasures are on order for installation in PartsConnexion-Level-1-modded Shanling SP80s, and to be compared to the present NOS 70's-era "Siemens" RFT EL34s. Input and driver tubes are early 40's era NOS RCA 6SN7 and 6SL7. The Shanlings are driving Triangle Naias. Currently an enormous, detailed and luscious sound with great bass pitch definition and power, but I am always looking for more. I recently upgraded to using regenerated AC via the Power Plant Premier with great results: better bass delineation and more refined top end. I also changed the Shanlings to IsoClean Fuses with clearly audible results; again more refinement of the upper end.

The curious thing is that some of the most highly regarded 6SN7s that I have tried (40's Tung Sol, 50's Mullard, 50's Valvo, 50's Fivre) while producing very detailed upper ends, don't quite produce the bass and midrange I am looking for. So after using the "Siemens" for years, I am wondering if the Treasures can provide more of those realms so that these other 6SL7s can be used instead of the Wartime RCAs. We will see the beginnings of that evaluation soon, but with the long break-in, it might take awhile. Could be that the Treasures will simply sound great with the RCAs?

So I am expecting the Treasures any day and will set the bias with my soon-to-arrive SRS Dual-Bias Tool. Previously, the darned amp had to be opened up and a board removed (!) to measure the current despite having pot access from the top!

My first post!

John
Moorpark CA

carusoracer · « **Reply #126 on:** 31 Jul 2009, 04:09 pm »

Great thread and replies

I picked up a quad that had about 50hrs on them and have some very favorable first impressions as well.
I have been clamoring to try the KT88 GL Re Issue's in the Jolida 302b before the treasures where made available. My thoughts were to take the glorious midrange of the Winged C Svetlana's and hopefully add more bass and fullness overall. Instead I took a chance on the Treasures'. I then took a sneak post bias and 2 hr burn in listen, my first impression was good but I thought not as sweet in the midrange.

50 hours later I took the time for a very critical listening session. I thought that they had more midrange presence and some good low level details with the top end a little bright...I then powered down and went back to the Winged C's and thought something was wrong with the Amp

Several songs later the Winged C's came out.

I then went back to the White Gloves and installed the 6CA7-Z's and re-checked the bias and let them play for about 20 minutes before I sat down again.

The music started to play again with some impact and sweetness to horns and vocals while the top end is still ever so slightly bright, yet the inner details and spacious feel of the tubes was really humming.
I'm not sure how much better they can get after 100 hrs but I'm looking forward to hearing it. So far very good...

Pez · « **Reply #127 on:** 31 Jul 2009, 04:30 pm »

Quote from: cryoparts on 28 Jul 2009, 04:57 pm

I like the GL's as well. However, the nod goes to the Treasure's from me, they are just a bit quieter, smoother and the inner detail is better.

Peace,

Lee

I have heard that from a trusted source that sonically the GL KT77s are far out classed by the KT66s. Obviously your results may vary, but personally I would be more interested to hear what people had to say between the treasures and the GL kt66s.

Audioclyde · « **Reply #128 on:** 31 Jul 2009, 05:54 pm »

While I believe its all system dependent and subject to everyone's different tastes, but I have a quad of GL reissue KT66's (with around 400 hours or so on them), and I much prefer the sound of the GL KT77's (and the JJ KT77's for that matter) to the sound of the GL reissue KT66's. All depends on what you like

. I'll readily admit that I'm a midrange nut and like a bit of warmth.

So at any rate, if possible and curious I'd definitely try the KT77's as well as the KT66's.

Pez · « **Reply #129 on:** 31 Jul 2009, 06:51 pm »

Well I definately like the KT66s better in my amp... Because my amp cannot bias the KT77s.

jcspinks · « **Reply #130 on:** 31 Jul 2009, 07:02 pm »

Quote from: carusoracer on 31 Jul 2009, 04:09 pm

Great thread and replies

I picked up a quad that had about 50hrs on them and have some very favorable first impressions as well.
I have been clamoring to try the KT88 GL Re Issue's in the Jolida 302b before the treasures where made available. My thoughts were to take the glorious midrange of the Winged C Svetlana's and hopefully add more bass and fullness overall. Instead I took a chance on the Treasures'. I then took a sneak post bias and 2 hr burn in listen, my first impression was good but I thought not as sweet in the midrange.

50 hours later I took the time for a very critical listening session. I thought that they had more midrange presence and some good low level details with the top end a little bright...I then powered down and went back to the Winged C's and thought something was wrong with the Amp Several songs later the Winged C's came out.

I then went back to the White Gloves and installed the 6CA7-Z's and re-checked the bias and let them play for about 20 minutes before I sat down again. The music started to play again with some impact and sweetness to horns and vocals while the top end is still ever so slightly bright, yet the inner details and spacious feel of the tubes was really humming.
I'm not sure how much better they can get after 100 hrs but I'm looking forward to hearing it. So far very good...

Yes, I too hope that they do not end up overly bright. How is the bass pitch definition and power relative to the rest of the spectrum?

jcspinks · « **Reply #131 on:** 5 Aug 2009, 04:38 am »

The 6CA7s are in the amp and biased at a VERY different setting from the Siemens to acheive the same idle current of 33mA. The current was heading for 50mA!

With the WWII RCA driver tubes the sound was very fat, so the Siemens are therefore relatively leaner sounding. I changed to Italian Fivre 6sl7s and the sound tightened up considerably. These drivers are in the ballpark of more typically accepted standards for balanced sound, so I believe the warmer RCAs were complimenting the thinner Siemens.

That aside, with the more complimentary driver, the Shuggies sound very good out of the box, initially with very extended but natural vocals, balanced and full midrange. The bass straight away was comparatively softish, not in amplitude, but in definition. I believe someone else callled it initially flabby. True that. After two hours of run in, the bass is already improved. The treble region actually sounds less good now, perhaps a bit spitty as some else put it. Despite these comments I am impressed so far. I will burn 'em in. Anyone know if idle current is sufficient - I don't want to play music all day. By the way, did I say that they are visually gorgeous?

carusoracer · « **Reply #132 on:** 5 Aug 2009, 06:19 pm »

In answer to the bass, I find it very good and defined. I would say it has some pretty good impact in my Amplifier.
I can not comment on the differences in the biasing as it was fairly close between the Winged C's and the Treasure's.

As far as overly bright I'm not sure I can comment yet as I only have around 110 hrs. I'm quite sensitive, as I have mentioned before, to high end brightness. I also have slight tennunitis, but yet I luv good treble.

jcspinks · « **Reply #133 on:** 7 Aug 2009, 05:05 am »

50 hours of mixed playing and simply leaving them on. Much better today. Highs are not yet pristine (as they were for a few brief minutes after installation) but much better. A bit diffuse but now quite musical. Bass is better defined but not yet on par with the Siemens. What is very interesting, and now contrary to what I said earlier, they now sound best with the RCAs! That means that they have skinnied down in the mids and bass, making them closer to the Siemens' signature. Yikes! What a lot of change!

jcspinks · « **Reply #134 on:** 13 Aug 2009, 02:10 am »

OK. 150 hours for the 6CA7s on the books and some very nice improvement in the vocals and treble. Now far smoother and outstanding imaging, very precise and fast, yet never in your face. Great resolution of detail now that was previously the opposite, somewhat slurred. I would say in each of these regards it (for now) surpasses the Siemens. Where the Siemens still excel is in the upper bass, where they do a better job of keeping the pace moving forward. Some of this is of course bias-dependent, but I'm pretty sure that the Siemens would win there now regardless of bias. Cymbals are still more real with the Siemens, but it is getting much closer.

These Shuggies are starting to impress me. Let's see if they can go all the way. I'll keep cooking them.

cryoparts · « **Reply #135 on:** 13 Aug 2009, 03:02 am »

You are about halfway there! Nice reports.

Lee

Quote from: jcspinks on 13 Aug 2009, 02:10 am

OK. 150 hours for the 6CA7s on the books and some very nice improvement in the vocals and treble. Now far smoother and outstanding imaging, very precise and fast, yet never in your face. Great resolution of detail now that was previously the opposite, somewhat slurred. I would say in each of these regards it (for now) surpasses the Siemens. Where the Siemens still excel is in the upper bass, where they do a better job of keeping the pace moving forward. Some of this is of course bias-dependent, but I'm pretty sure that the Siemens would win there now regardless of bias. Cymbals are still more real with the Siemens, but it is getting much closer.

These Shuggies are starting to impress me. Let's see if they can go all the way. I'll keep cooking them.

jcspinks · « **Reply #136 on:** 15 Aug 2009, 04:24 am »

200 hours in on the 6CA7s. Upon first listening after resetting bias to 34.8, the sound seemed very similar to the 150 hour mark with great vocals and detail, but with a minor lack of upper bass drive. Cymbals still a small tad less believable than with the Siemens. So, I decided to once again play with bias. I lowered it by one mA to 33.8 and got a shift to a tad more upper bass and cymbal realism with no destruction of image or vocals. Still looking for a bit more drive, I went ahead and lowered it by one more mA to 32.8, and by God I got it. It is responsive after all. However at this setting vocals started a bit of recession backward and imaging went softer. I reset to 33.5 and promptly got the best of both worlds, sounding very, very good indeed. The sound is now in competition with the Siemens.

I am still stunned by how these, like the Siemens, are SO responsive to smallish deltas in bias.

Perhaps this weekend I will reinstall the Siemens for a reality check. We all know how our audio memory is sometimes. However, I am pretty sure these are close and may even exceed the NOS tubes.

jcspinks · « **Reply #137 on:** 22 Aug 2009, 05:36 am »

I have more than reached 300 hours and have only listened briefly due to other issues, but what I have heard is very, very good. Properly biased, very fine level detail without being too forward and very deep and pitch-defined bass. The RCAs thus far are a very good match, giving luscious midrange that the Shuggies execute faithfully, again provided bias is perfect. More detailed reportage and comparison to NOS soon.

jcspinks · « **Reply #138 on:** 23 Aug 2009, 12:36 am »

The Shuguang 6CA7s win the contest by a nice margin. I compared the NOS Siemens with the same bias that I had optimized to two weeks ago to my latest settings for the Treasures. The Treasures are much more well articulated with excellent detail, great midrange and bass hitting hard with no fluff at all. They are simply exquisite! I am currently still using wartime RCAs as drivers with great results. I have tried many others and got some good sound, but since break-in I always came back to the RCAs and 33.3 mA of bias for the sweet spot. Absolutely the best sound I have yet heard out of two speakers.

The break-in was long and tedious but more than worth it. Give Ian your money NOW and you'll be glad you did. Case closed. Now I'm going to need reserve quads and I'll go broke.

jcspinks · « **Reply #139 on:** 25 Aug 2009, 02:35 am »

I was really surprised at how far they have taken the sound. I thought the system was resolving before, but this an altogether new level. Even from the other room I am hearing things in familiar recordings that I had not heard before. Somehow they manage detail without sacrificing liquidity and warmth AND bass drive. It's really quite stunning. Also Nels in his article at enjoythemusic was less thrilled with the 6ca7s mostly due to relatively less bass solidity compared to the 88s. There is NO lack of bass power, pitch definition, or clarity here. It is producing some the most hard-hitting yet somehow elegant bass that I have yet heard.

Considering that they are a fraction of the cost of a good amp but are responsible for an enormous amount of sound quality and refinement, I'd say that they are a bargain given a reasonable useful life. I am getting a Hickok 580 that I will have gone over by Roger Kennedy here in SoCal and willonitor their measurements over time.

By the way everybody, absolutely play with bias because it REALLY is responsible for the final sonic signature. A half milliamperes significantly alters the sound. My other strong advice is to get your power right. The psAudio PPP made an enormous difference in refinement. And yes, fuses can matter too. They are clearly audible changes akin to power cord changes.