Best sounding subs on the market? Could be...

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rythmik

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Re: Best sounding subs on the market? Could be...
« Reply #140 on: 29 Feb 2008, 05:36 pm »
Brian,

This was a serious proposal. But I can also see your point and I have certainly no intention to take away anything from the good efforts of your work. But with the ongoing debate about high or low Qts-value elements as mostly suited to dipole work in the bass area I saw your units (or perhaps those of GR-Research) as perfect samples for conducting research into this question. There is of course a bit more to it with EQ and overall response.

However, which unit would perform with the least Servo feedback, would have been an interesting question to have an answer to.
This would not be the same as saying that this unit would not perform even better with the Servo feedback in place.

/Erling

Erling,

I can understand why you are so interested in knowing either way.  But I am speaking from over 20 years of experience.  I used to think low Qts as the universally good driver. But I changed that some 8 years ago.  Let me explain the rational before and after, and why I come up with the servo design as it is now.  The speaker wire resistance and voice coil resistance (I will refer to the sum of the two as lumped resistance) is an isolation barrier for us the completely control the cone motion.  It is like flying a kite. This is because there is an back emf generated by the cone motion (=B*l*v, the B is the magnetic strength, l is the voice coil wire length, and v is the cone velocity) sitting on other end of this lumped resistance. If the voice coil wire and speaker cable goes to superconductor, we then have 0 lumped resistance and the amplifier output drives directly to the back emf, and the cone velocity will follow amp output exactly.  Based on this view, I had concluded low Qts means better cone control and therefore  better.  Over time, with tests done on various drivers I found another interesting data point. The output at fs frequency point actually favors high Qts. It is no surprise. This is because the back EMF is B*l*v,  and higher B leads to lower v and therefore lower output.  The output above and below fs is determined by other parameters, such cone mass and total loaded compliance and B value plays a partial role.  Eventually I figure this all out and come up the following design method:
1) design the physical parameters to allow for the max output per watt. This has led us to whatever parameters that give us Qts of 0.8 to 0.9 after loading (regardless if it is sealed box or OB, or IB).
2) design the servo such that the equivalent Qts is way way low so that we can completely control of the cone.
3) design the roll off contouring such that it can be as flexible as possible. User can select Q=0.5, or 0.7, or 1.1. and even various roll-off frequencies.


It turns out these objectives can work so well together without one stepping on another.  People can get the physical output of a high Q driver and get the cone control of the low Q driver and adjust the frequency response to match his room size.  I have repeated this view in several posts in this thread now.  It really starts to sound like a broken record.  In order not to hijack the thread, this will be the last time for me to answer this question here. Please send me PM for all further questions.

BTW, you are thinking the amount of feedback can affect the sound quality and I can honestly say that by changing the interconnect, we can get into another tweaking feast if you'd like tweaking (because the sub is very transparent). I am already out of that hobby. I acknowledge the different sound characteristic between various components, interconnects, or amplifier topology.  But I will not spend time to exhaust all experiments to find the best combination.  That is a no-ending story.  On the other hand, I have a setup such that I can evaluate the variability under different setup. I have 2 interconnects. One is Kimber KCAG and one is Discovery Signature. The servo subs need to sound good on both interconnects and fortunately they do. I also have a brighter speakers NHT SB3 and a more neutral speakers to see how they match. It turns out the best way to match them is to have a very neutral subwoofer as well.

[EDIT] BTW, I have also tried several amplifier topologies, including BASH (a "very" soft sounding amp), Hypex (sound characteristic similar to our amp), and some other class D amps (which also very soft sounding, our I should say muddy).  So far I have not heard another plate amp more punchy than ours and I am quite happy with that.  Granted, my OEM customers has asked me to evaluate more digital amps and that is always an on-going process.   

I cannot convinced most people with their mind already set up or made up. A lot of debates on audio forum are just like that. As one has pointed in another forum, it is mainly because the consequence or stake of being wrong is so insignificant.  The system always generate sound, regardless it is good or bad, and regardless the idea is being right or wrong.  We lack a formal process to validate our claims, including mine and it certainly creates confusion.
« Last Edit: 29 Feb 2008, 08:04 pm by rythmik »

scorpion

Re: Best sounding subs on the market? Could be...
« Reply #141 on: 29 Feb 2008, 06:38 pm »
Brian,

Thank you very much for your answer. I will not challange it, I take your word for it as true.
I am glad you took the time to answer the way you did. From your point the question already
had an answer. I think I like to stay with your answer for the time going.  :)

[Edit] I was not really interested in the feedback as such, just the amount required to control the cone and I think you replied to that question
in a clearcut way. And I also think with your explanation in this last post you have been able to explain what possibly was a bit unclear before about
your design and the various Q-values.

/Erling

« Last Edit: 29 Feb 2008, 08:05 pm by scorpion »

chrismercurio

Re: Best sounding subs on the market? Could be...
« Reply #142 on: 29 Feb 2008, 07:22 pm »
Thanks Brian. I need to find something that I can run up to 200-250hz for my application. Still waiting on Danny....

C

rythmik

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Re: Best sounding subs on the market? Could be...
« Reply #143 on: 29 Feb 2008, 07:36 pm »
Thanks Brian. I need to find something that I can run up to 200-250hz for my application. Still waiting on Danny....

C

To xover higher, we can add a shelving network to postpone the roll-off to a  higher frequency.

nodiak

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Re: Best sounding subs on the market? Could be...
« Reply #144 on: 7 Mar 2008, 11:37 pm »
Saw the amps for GR drivers on Rythmik website. Look like the old ones, like mine which is fine and works great. But are there new ones with more or different features coming?
Don
« Last Edit: 8 Mar 2008, 01:06 am by nodiak »

Danny Richie

Re: Best sounding subs on the market? Could be...
« Reply #145 on: 8 Mar 2008, 12:59 am »
I think you mean that you saw the amps for the GR drivers on the Rythmik site.

New amps with new features are coming and I will have them available for order straight from our site when they are in stock.

nodiak

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Re: Best sounding subs on the market? Could be...
« Reply #146 on: 8 Mar 2008, 01:08 am »
Thanks Danny. Edited my post to say amps instead of subs to fix my mistake.
Don

justinc2

Re: Best sounding subs on the market? Could be...
« Reply #147 on: 11 Mar 2008, 08:45 pm »
Hey Danny Is there any reasoning for not designing the new subs to look similar to all of the midranges with the same cone material and phase plug.  I dont know much about the strength of materials used or other principals...Just thinking it might look nice to have the sub arrays match the LS arrays...

 




sts9fan

Re: Best sounding subs on the market? Could be...
« Reply #148 on: 11 Mar 2008, 09:22 pm »
Quote
New amps with new features are coming and I will have them available for order straight from our site when they are in stock.

What will the new features be?  I am looking to buy one of these real soon so I would like to know.  What is the time frame? 

kris

Danny Richie

Re: Best sounding subs on the market? Could be...
« Reply #149 on: 11 Mar 2008, 10:18 pm »
Actually the line source woofers do not have a phase plug or phase plug shaped dust cap. The cone material is the same as they both use a paper cone.

Quote
What will the new features be?  I am looking to buy one of these real soon so I would like to know.  What is the time frame? 


There is a variable EQ with adjustable frequency, bandwidth and gain or attenuation. There is an adjustable rumble filter. There is some selectable 24db per octave additional settings. Plus the standard variable Q and damping settings.

If all goes well maybe they will arrive by the end of this month.

rythmik

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Re: Best sounding subs on the market? Could be...
« Reply #150 on: 12 Mar 2008, 04:16 pm »
They are already on the way here. A more realistic schedule is 2nd week of Apr.  There are two models, serving two different applications. A370PEQ has a PEQ function, the 12-24db switch,  and an extra filter for vinyl lovers.



Another model more for professional application which has an XLR input and master/slave function, but without PEQ. The rationale is these customers  most likely already have dedicated PEQ units.  In addition, it is impossible to fit all function in there.



The price will be $279 for 4ohms and $289 for 8ohms and 16ohms.  This price will be good before summer.  I really hope a lot of members can take advantage of it.


TRADERXFAN

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Re: Best sounding subs on the market? Could be...
« Reply #151 on: 12 Mar 2008, 04:33 pm »
I am not familiar with the master/slave xlrs -but would these be for something like the DEQ2496?
I had been thinking of getting one. However, as far as reliability, maybe I would rather have it built into the amp by you...

rythmik

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Re: Best sounding subs on the market? Could be...
« Reply #152 on: 12 Mar 2008, 04:56 pm »
I am not familiar with the master/slave xlrs -but would these be for something like the DEQ2496?
I had been thinking of getting one. However, as far as reliability, maybe I would rather have it built into the amp by you...

The master slave enables you to stack more subs if you need higher SPL. The ability to control every sub with just one control unit is a must. Mack's has something like that. It does not replace DEQ2496.  In terms of PEQ, our philosophy has always been that the less signale processing, the better. That is why we offer 1 band PEQ and it is defeatable (a complete bypass).

TRADERXFAN

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Re: Best sounding subs on the market? Could be...
« Reply #153 on: 12 Mar 2008, 05:29 pm »
Sorry that I am a bit dense on this. I need some clarification still...

So if I were to use a deq2496 to equalize my stereo subwoofers, would I want to use the amplifier with the XLR inputs (is this better ?) or just the standard amplifier and bypass the PEQ and send the signal through the RCA inputs (converted to RCA from XLR out of the DEQ2496, with some adapters)?


On another subject. If I was only going to get one 8 ohm subwoofer now, and then later added a second 8 ohm sub to it in parallel, would the 8 ohm amplifier work well with this? -I guess what I am trying to ask is: if I am only going to get one sealed sub now, and may want to get another one down the line to increase output/lower distortion, what do you recommend for the best combination of drivers and amplifier? tradeoffs?

Thanks
Tony

rythmik

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Re: Best sounding subs on the market? Could be...
« Reply #154 on: 13 Mar 2008, 01:57 am »
Sorry that I am a bit dense on this. I need some clarification still...

So if I were to use a deq2496 to equalize my stereo subwoofers, would I want to use the amplifier with the XLR inputs (is this better ?) or just the standard amplifier and bypass the PEQ and send the signal through the RCA inputs (converted to RCA from XLR out of the DEQ2496, with some adapters)?


On another subject. If I was only going to get one 8 ohm subwoofer now, and then later added a second 8 ohm sub to it in parallel, would the 8 ohm amplifier work well with this? -I guess what I am trying to ask is: if I am only going to get one sealed sub now, and may want to get another one down the line to increase output/lower distortion, what do you recommend for the best combination of drivers and amplifier? tradeoffs?

Thanks
Tony


If you plan to purchase a DEQ, you can defeat the A370PEQ amp, or you can use a A370XLR.  XLR is the only option if you plan to run a long cable.

You can run one 8ohm driver first and add another driver later. However, when you add the 2nd driver, it is necessary that both drivers in close proximity.  The left and right placement is not gonna work.  In other words, you may need to build the enclosure twice which is not very good.  If you purchase 4 ohm driver, you can always add one later. If you purchase the A370XLR amp, you can run one of them as mater, the other unit as slave and control everything from the  master unit. 
« Last Edit: 13 Mar 2008, 03:11 am by rythmik »

DeanSheen

Re: Best sounding subs on the market? Could be...
« Reply #155 on: 18 Mar 2008, 05:16 am »
"If you purchase the A370XLR amp, you can run one of them as mater, the other unit as slave and control everything from the  master unit. "

So I could buy 2 4ohm subs with one amp, place them in stereo and use the XLR to power the second passive sub?


BrunoB

Re: Best sounding subs on the market? Could be...
« Reply #156 on: 19 Mar 2008, 06:48 pm »
I would be interested to see the impulse and the waterfall plots for one driver , with and without servo.

Bruno

rythmik

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Re: Best sounding subs on the market? Could be...
« Reply #157 on: 20 Mar 2008, 04:37 am »
I would be interested to see the impulse and the waterfall plots for one driver , with and without servo.

Bruno

It is not realistic to find a room/space that can do good waterfall test valid down to 10hz.  I do consider have a loaner sub to float around.  One can spend the shipping to have them auditioned at your home for a fixed period time. Hopefully enough people sign up for it so that we can do a "travelling salesman optimization"  :D to get the best route. Be aware the shipping weight can be more than 100lbs. One needs to commit to ship to the next person.

BrunoB

Re: Best sounding subs on the market? Could be...
« Reply #158 on: 20 Mar 2008, 08:23 am »
I would be interested to see the impulse and the waterfall plots for one driver , with and without servo.

Bruno

It is not realistic to find a room/space that can do good waterfall test valid down to 10hz.  I do consider have a loaner sub to float around.  .

If you put the mic very close to the woofer membrane, the room is taken out of the equation. I am pretty sure that the measurements for the servo driven woofer would be much cleaner than without servo. You could even publish the measurements on your web site (which is very nice, BTW).

Bruno

rythmik

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Amps are in
« Reply #159 on: 10 Apr 2008, 07:32 am »


A370PEQ:

On the top is this defeat-able PEQ. The gain level is from 3db to -12db. The bandwidth controls how wide the notch/peak is. Frequency is from 20hz to 80 with each dot position represents 10hz increment.  I don't recommend boost below 35hz. But boost above 40hz is ok as our subs
have more headroom there.  The first plot is the gain control at 3 different positions: 3db, 0db, and -12db. The frequency setting is at 20hz. the bandwidth is at min.



In terms of sensitivity, the 12 o'clock position gives us about -5db attenuation while 3 o'clock position gives us -10db attenuation.  In other words, the range between 0db and 3 o'clock is what we will use most.




Next is the width control. The comparison is between 7 o'clock, then 9, 12, and 3. I didn't plot 5 o'clock as it is same as 3 o'clock position.  The gain is at -12db and frequency is set to 20hz.



Next is the frequency setting comparison at various dotted positions, from 20hz to 80hz. There is a bit of inaccuracy. But overall it is still very good.




In the middle are our regular controls. The one worth discussion is the phase/delay. It is same as the previous one except I improve the resolution and change the label.  The circuit is a simple RC all pass filter. Similar circuit is used for adding delay time (such as those in Linkwitz's all active speakers).  That is why I add delay to the label. While the circuit does provide delay, but it will top out at 180 degrees. Theoretically, given a fixed delay, the phase shift should be proportional to frequency. However, this RC circuit will not go beyond 180 degrees. Even though I can cascade more stages, I don't think it is useful. I put in 180 there to stress the fact that the circuit tops out at 180degress.  So that 180 degrees is not constant to all frequency. Even if you put in 90degree (at 12 oclock position), that is not constant for all frequencies. To get accurate phase delay, one really needs to first figure out the xover frequency and the reciprocal of that gives use the period. 90 degrees is a quarter of period. Then find the position of that on this dial. Your adjustment range is from 7 o'clock to that position to get 0 to 90 degrees shift, you can more by turning more to the right, but it may saturate at 180 degrees even before you turn all the way to the right. Anyway, a plot is worth a thousand words, and here it is from 8 o'clock position to 3 o'clock position.  I only plot to 3 o'clock as there is no change beyond 3 o'clock position.



The bottom row has  4 switches. The left 2 are new. One is to replace our 12-24db switch. So this model will replace our 12-24db model going forward.  For those with HT receiver and use its bass management, they should get it to middle position 12db/EXT. EXT means the main xover is external.  In this case, the xover control knob is mainly for fine tuning.  For those don't have HT receiver, or don't use the bass management function on receivers would require the plate amp implement this xover function and that is what this 50hz/24 and 80hz/24 are for. 50hz/24 means the plate amp implement a LP filter with a fixed 12db at 50hz, plus the 12db adjustable knob to make up a 24db total slope. Similarly for 80hz/24.  The following shows the FR of this 50hz and 80hz fixed filter.





In either case, one should always use the xover knob in the middle to fine tune the overlap between subwoofer and front speakers. It is more important to combine this control and phase control to achieve the best results.  Personally I always use an SPL meter, a test CD (for warble tone), and a spreadsheet.


The rumble filter is for vinyl user or those who wants to play louder. It is a 3rd order HP at 20hz.


Lastly, the HP filter on the line out.







A370XLR:

It has a balanced input and balanced output. However, the balance input is more for subwoofer input only as it does not have HP output. The balanced output is mainly for master/slave configuration.   In master mode, the balanced input is just like the other two single-ended inputs, except it does not have HP filtered output. The balanced output goes to another slave unit with the switch set to slave.  With this setup, one can precisely control two units to have identical output except phase. In other words, phase control is still functional in slave mode. I believe this is desirable as multiple subs may have different distance to the listener.


The price will be $279 for 4ohms and $289 for 8ohms and 16ohms.  This price will be good before summer.  I really hope a lot of members can take advantage of it.

Sensor-based servo improves on 3 fronts: 1) the absence of thermal "compression" because the voice coil resistance does not affect the frequency response, 2) The reduction of spider/surround (or mechanical) distortion. The mechanical distortion is worse than electrical distortion because they change over time and become very unpredictable, and 3) better cone control even in the presence of external force.   I have published distortion numbers on my web and that gives the impression that I am into low distortion number. My main goal there is actually to show the reduction  of spider distortion, not "harmonic" distortion. Among all of them improvement, the one in point 1) is frequency independent and therefore not limited by bandwidth.

The lack of boxy sound from our sensor based servo sub is a result of point 3) above. Anyone building enclosures is familiar with the knocking sound of enclosures with the driver cutout area open, and how that sound becomes more solid when the cut-out area is covered with another piece of solid MDF. Better yet, one can put the head into the opening and listen the echo inside the enclosure. The term boxy sound has been misunderstood as the sound from a box. It is actually more of a box with one wall open so that the reflection/standing wave inside can escape. Therefore a 100% sturdy enclosure cannot get rid of boxy sound because the internal reflection can still escape from the driver's cone.  If the cone is not well control, the energy can move the cone and produces a second acoustic wave, and 3rd...

I have been pondering how I can actually measure the improvement of cone control. The other day, I decided to build a device to measure the cone control improvement from our servo. The test enclosure has two chambers sharing a dividing wall. A driver emulating the reflection from the wall is mounted on the dividing wall is called "reflectance simulation driver" (RSD). One of the chambers is completely sealed and the DUT (15") is mounted on an outer wall of another chamber (sort of like a bandpass enclosure with the vent replaced with the DUT).  The purpose is to measure how much DUT moves relative to the RSD's cone movement. The smaller the movement from DUT,  the better. It is an indication that the cone can resist better to the standing or reflective sound waves.  We compare the servo setup to the nonservo setup and plot the ratio of the two and we get:
    

The middle horizontal center line is 0db, which  means no improvement at all. The best improvement is indeed 3x in amplitude (or 10db, 10x in power) and diminishes above 60hz, but to my surprise, that it does not go to zero until 500hz.  Although I show the result for 15", the improvement from the 12" driver is also similar.  Can a nonservo sub achieve the same improvement? Sure, it can, but with 3x magnet size (in order to increase the B value by 70%) because this excellent cone control is a result of 0.28 Qts when loaded with enclosure (not free air).  Even if one actually uses a triple size magnet to achieve the same Qts value, the side effect of stall will come into play to signifcantly reduce the output around the resonance frequency fs. So much so it reduces the output by up to 5db (or 3.3x in power) around fs frequency.




« Last Edit: 10 Apr 2008, 02:25 pm by rythmik »