[Marco1408]

Hi Phill,

That's interesting. I've experimented quite a lot with mats and personally I wouldn't put a rubber mat anywhere near my 1210...

The SDS Isoplatmat in conjunction with a 3mm Herbie's Way Excellent I've found is best. I've tried the Achromat and it's good, but not as good as the SDS, and it's really one or the other due to the thickness of both mats together - that is if you want to use a Herbie's, or something else, to interface with the record. The SDS is not any good for the latter purpose - it's primary purpose is to reduce platter resonance, not used as a mat, so it needs to be put under something else. I've tried a 5mm Achromat/Herbie's combination, and it's not as good as the SDS/Herbie's combo. Rubber mats are much worse, IMO, than any of the above whether used with an Achromat or whatever.

But as with anything else, feel free to experiment. There are no absolutes in hi-fi!

Marco.

[ixlr8]

Marco,
   Did you ever post a review of your 1200? or did I miss it somewhere?

     Thanks,

       Jim

[Marco1408]

Hi Jim,

No, I haven't done it yet yet. I've been too busy enjoying the table and listening to music

I've discovered some interesting things in the process, and make a few further tweaks here and there, so I will be reporting about these soon and hopefully doing the full review at the same time.

In the meantime, if you've got any questions you'd like to ask - fire away!

Marco.

[ixlr8]

No real questions at the moment, I am getting ready to order one and I have been following this thread waiting for your review, I am sorting out what options to get. I have 7 records left over from when I bought them in the 70's, but my new girlfriend has boxes of them so I am looking for a TT to play them on. The only vinyl enthusist I know is Linn man all the way and nothing else is any good, my checking account can't go there. So I am just trying to learn as much as I can and you seem to have an organized way of presenting your opinions, which I appreciate.

    Jim

[Marco1408]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the compliment - I do my best

Good to hear that you're getting into vinyl again and considering a modified 1210. You've given me the kick up the ass I needed to do the review, so stand by and it should be ready in the next couple of days

Marco.

[dmckean]

I'm interested in your review too, I still can't decide whether to go with the KAB modifications/rewire to the stock arm or go with a modified/rewired Rega RB250. Theres a bit of a price difference but I've used an RB250 arm for a decade now and I've always been amazed at it's versatility.

Basically it's either stock arm + $150 fluid damping + $170 rewire + 50 head shell with azimuth adjustment = $370.

or

$250 Rega Arm + $100 Mitchell Tecno weight + $200 incognito rewire + $80 armboard + $50 thread TVA adjuster = $680.

I'm not sure what I might be able to sell a stock arm for if I go the Rega route.

[Marco1408]

Hi dmckean,

I'm still trying to get the time to write it. When I write the review, I want to do it properly and make sure it's a fair and true reflection of the table's abilities against other T/Ts I've used, and some that I'm familiar with in the current market place. Unfortunately this is my busiest time of year, work-wise

However, I'll have a go at answering your question.

The first question I would ask before we go any further is what type of cartridge do you intend to use with the Technics? Your answer will have a significant bearing on the recommendation I give. And what type of mat system do you intend to use?

When you supply me with this information, we'll take it further.

One thing I will say in the interim is that you should, if funds permit, factor in the cost of the separate PSU, and prioritise the inclusion of this, as in my opinion it makes the biggest improvement of all the KAB modifications.

Speak to you soon.

Regards,
Marco.

[Emmodd]

Having had my stock arm re-wired by Audio-origami I can vouch for this route. Haven't heard the modified Rega however and so can't offer a subjective comparison.

I'm quite interested in adding the outboard PSU and wonder whether it's possible to build one myself rather than buying the KAB one. I imagine it's relatively basic. Anyone got any ideas?

[dmckean]

Hi dmckean,

I'm still trying to get the time to write it. When I write the review, I want to do it properly and make sure it's a fair and true reflection of the table's abilities against other T/Ts I've used, and some that I'm familiar with in the current market place. Unfortunately this is my busiest time of year, work-wise

However, I'll have a go at answering your question.

The first question I would ask before we go any further is what type of cartridge do you intend to use with the Technics? Your answer will have a significant bearing on the recommendation I give. And what type of mat system do you intend to use?

When you supply me with this information, we'll take it further.

One thing I will say in the interim is that you should, if funds permit, factor in the cost of the separate PSU, and prioritise the inclusion of this, as in my opinion it makes the biggest improvement of all the KAB modifications.

Speak to you soon.

Regards,
Marco.

Hi Marco,

Don't knock yourself out too hard to get the review written, it's no big deal.

I really haven't decided what I'm going to do for a cartridge. My current modded Rega P2 setup is pretty modest and the Ortofon Super OM 40 I currently have is the most expensive cartridge I've ever owned. I'll use it and my Cambridge Azur 640P phono stage until I can upgrade. I was 19 when I bought the P2 and my income was a lot different. The motor on my P2 is slowly dying so it's time to upgrade. As for a mat I plan to try the isoplatmat/herbie's combo everyone else is liking.

Maybe someone will make a custom ceramic platter for the Technics someday. Then we wouldn't need multiple mats.

Thanks for the advice on the PSU, I was planning on having it wired with the power socket and do the upgrade later but I think I'll take your advice and just buy it with the table.

Thanks,

Dave

[Marco1408]

Hi Dan,

Having had my stock arm re-wired by Audio-origami I can vouch for this route. Haven't heard the modified Rega however and so can't offer a subjective comparison.

I'm quite interested in adding the outboard PSU and wonder whether it's possible to build one myself rather than buying the KAB one. I imagine it's relatively basic. Anyone got any ideas?

The PSU itself may be relatively basic, but implementing it successfully into the T/T's existing electronics so that it functions correctly, isn't. I believe it took Kevin many months of experimenting to achieve this satisfactorily. I would email KAB and ask Kevin his advice on the matter before attempting such a modification yourself.

Marco.

[Emmodd]

Hi Marco.

In that case i'll have a word with SWMBO and see if i can get the purse strings loosened! Got some slight problems with buzzing on my t/t and notice that this can creep in with the older tables (of which mine is one). Very keen to try the offboard PSU because according to Kevin this should help.

Regards.

[Marco1408]

Hi Marco,

Don't knock yourself out too hard to get the review written, it's no big deal.

I really haven't decided what I'm going to do for a cartridge. My current modded Rega P2 setup is pretty modest and the Ortofon Super OM 40 I currently have is the most expensive cartridge I've ever owned. I'll use it and my Cambridge Azur 640P phono stage until I can upgrade. I was 19 when I bought the P2 and my income was a lot different. The motor on my P2 is slowly dying so it's time to upgrade. As for a mat I plan to try the isoplatmat/herbie's combo everyone else is liking.

Maybe someone will make a custom ceramic platter for the Technics someday. Then we wouldn't need multiple mats.

Thanks for the advice on the PSU, I was planning on having it wired with the power socket and do the upgrade later but I think I'll take your advice and just buy it with the table.

Hi Dave,

I think it's always best to look to the future with these things and get the best option you can afford. In my opinion, having in the past used modified RB250s and 300s, the stock arm rewired with fluid damper is the way to go, plus an improved counterweight balance in brass, like I have had designed (see pics of my system earlier in the thread) if you plan to use a moving coil cartridge.

The modified Regas are good arms, particularly the Audio Origami version, but they lack the effortless musical flow and sense of 'ease' of the stock arm, fully KAB modified. It's difficult to put into words, but the Regas, IMO, tend to make the Technics sound too 'hi-fi' - as if they're trying really hard to impress in a sonic sense, but ultimately failing to satisfy, musically; whereas the stock arm (modified) seems to take everything in its stride and completely beguiles you with all genres of music. I hope that gives you inkling of the difference I perceive between the two types of arms. Of course much of this depends on the cartridge used, as this will impose its on characteristics on proceedings and influence the results obtained.

I'm glad you've decided to go for the PSU - it makes a huge difference to the performance of the table. My attitude to these things is always to upgrade from the source, and everything starts from the mains supply. I could write much more on this subject but unfortunately time constraints at the moment prevent me from doing so. I hope my short answer has been of some help.

Regards,
Marco.

[dmckean]

Hi Marco,

I think I understand and I'm just surprised the modified KAB arm is that good. I've spent some time with a stock 1210 MK5 and was only impressed with the build of the table itself. I guess when I think about it I had the same experience initially with the RB250 arm and I wasn't very impressed until after several mods.

I'm looking for something that totally outclasses what I have in every way. The tables I've been listening to in the same price range as the fully modded KAB (VPI Scout, Mitchell Tecnodec) are a step up from what I have now but it certainly doesn't blow it away.

[Marco1408]

I think I understand and I'm just surprised the modified KAB arm is that good.

It is, Dave. But, you must also upgrade the headshell (to Zu Supreme) and cartridge leads to Cardas (I posted a link to these leads earlier in the thread) keeping the cable loom the same throughout the rewired arm, and also have a brass counterweight balance machined to fit the arm with the weight (mass) tailored to suit the cartridge you're using, if you're to get the same performance from the arm that I have achieved.

If you do this, and go for the PSU and strobe disabler, believe me you'll have a table that'll compete with the likes of an SME 20! (And better it in terms of bass solidity). I've compared my T/T against many much more expensive tables, not just the SME, and I wouldn't change it for any of them.

Marco.

[Emmodd]

Marco, who made the counterweight for you and how did you design it so it was spot on for the cart you were intending to use?

[ixlr8]

Marco... you raise more questions for me than you answer.. then again I am just getting back into vinyl after 30 years so clueless is a good way to describe my knowledge of things TT related. I have limited funds, looking at SL-1200 here are the options I was going to get; Arm rewire, fluid damper, strobe eliminator, KAR/Ortofon ProS30, if budget only allows one more 'option' what would you recommend getting? Also, what difference does it make if the counter weight is brass or something else? Is your brass CW a different weight than stock? If you recommend a different cartridge than the ProS30, what would it be?

  TIA,
   Jim

[Marco1408]

Marco, who made the counterweight for you and how did you design it so it was spot on for the cart you were intending to use?

Thrunobulaxx (John) designed the brass counterweight balance, on the Crossover Network forum, which I see you've recently joined

Send him a PM and he'll do one for you no problem. His prices are very reasonable, too.

It's a kind of 'suck it and see' thing with getting the weight (mass) right for the cartridge you're using. There aren't really any set parameters to follow. All I done was weigh the existing counterweight, which is around 95g (if I remember correctly) and added on enough to ensure that the brass counterweight would be as near as possible to the arm's pivot point when correct VTF has been achieved, and also that which allows correct balancing of the arm from the beginning.

In my experience, the sound is always better when the counterweight balance is positioned as near to the arm's pivot point as possible, rather than situated towards the end edge of the stub. You also have to watch, though, that you don't increase the arm's overall mass to a degree that affects its relationship with the compliance of the cartridge. For example, my DL-103 Pro is a low compliance design, so it prefers a high-ish mass arm (12g+) and is therefore quite comfortable with the extra mass brought about by the inclusion of the brass counterweight. A high compliance cartridge would not be comfortable with this. If you're using a MM cartridge, I would not recommend changing from the stock counterweight balance. Compliance specifications are usually included in the spec sheet that comes with the cartridge.

Marco.

[Marco1408]

Marco... you raise more questions for me than you answer.. then again I am just getting back into vinyl after 30 years so clueless is a good way to describe my knowledge of things TT related. I have limited funds, looking at SL-1200 here are the options I was going to get; Arm rewire, fluid damper, strobe eliminator, KAR/Ortofon ProS30, if budget only allows one more 'option' what would you recommend getting?

Hi Jim,

The PSU, without question.

Also, what difference does it make if the counter weight is brass or something else?

I wouldn't imagine so, but alternative materials may give a different sonic effect. I chose brass because it was easier for the person who designed the counterweight balance to machine.

Is your brass CW a different weight than stock?

Yes. See my reply to Emmodd.

If you recommend a different cartridge than the ProS30, what would it be?

Denon DL-103 or 103R. I prefer coils, but they're harder to performance optimise.

103 Pro (by Highphonic) if you're up for importing from Japan.

But it would help if you told me what type of sound you like and what music you listen to.

Marco.

[ixlr8]

Marco,
  Thanks for the thoughtful reply's, with reguard to cartridges, part of my issue is that the phono preamp I presently have is limited to 47K ohm, on both the MC and MM inputs. That is why I have been looking mostly at MM cartridges. The music I listen to is, classical, some jazz, some blues, some country, some stuff from the 60's-70's.

     Jim

[Marco1408]

I'd go with the KAB Ortofon ProS30 then, Jim, and stick with the stock counterweight. The advantages of the brass counterweight only really come into play when moving coil cartridges are used.

Are you going for the KAB PSU, too, then?

Marco.