KAB-modified SL-1210: a British enthusiast's view

lcrim · « **Reply #100 on:** 7 Oct 2007, 03:10 am »

A lower mass arm is not necessarily a better arm. If you plan on using the Denon DL-103, a low compliance cartridge, the mass of the standard arm and the damping tray are better suited to controlling it keeping the stylus in the groove and damping resonance feeding back through the arm as the result of using the low compliance cartridge.

dmckean · « **Reply #101 on:** 7 Oct 2007, 06:17 am »

That makes sense.

Thanks lcrim.

Marco1408 · « **Reply #102 on:** 7 Oct 2007, 10:40 am »

Hi Dave,

Quote

Would this transformer work with the Denon cartridge? The same guy that sells the isoplatmat here in North America sells that MC stepup for $295.

Good choice and excellent link. I forgot about the Rothwell!

Yes it would definitely 'work'. I rate the Rothwell highly as a step-up device for general use, and it offers very good sound-per-dollar value. I've not heard one with a 103, though. The main reason I recommended the Denon and Highphonic units is because they have been matched with and specifically designed to optimise the performance of the 103. Apart from gain, you have other considerations such as loading and impedance - these are important electrical values to get correct if you want to hear a cartridge at its best. It's no accident that MC cartridges from top manufacturers like Audio Note, Kondo, etc, are all designed with dedicated step-up transformers to optimise their perfomance, and in that respect the Denons are no different.

However, at its price point, the Rothwell offers exceptional value for money and is likely to be a good sounding unit. If $295 is your budget it's a viable option. There is also an obvious cost advantage for you to buy from the States. The only reservation I have with the Rothwell is that it is an unknown quantity, as far as partnering the DL-103R or Pro is concerned. I've used the Denon and Highphonic units and *know* they work extremely well with the 103, so in that respect the Denon or Highphonc units are a safe bet. What would I do in your position? Probably go for the 103 Pro and Highphonic unit together from Swing Audio (as per the link I posted earlier) for reasons above. Yes, it's a slightly more expensive solution, but my thoughts on this matter are that you're only doing it once so get it right first time with no (possible) regrets. But of course the decision is up to you.

Quote

Also, if cost were no object (it's an object with me obviously), would it be worth it to import the 1200MK4 for the Titanium arm and give it all the KAB mods?

No, definitely not. As Larry correctly points out, KAB do a quality check on the table that is invaluable, and even more significantly, why buy a MK4 1200 when you can get a MK5GSE (same as mine) with the titanium arm, from KAB? Buy your table from KAB and get Kevin to do the mods for you - job done!

Marco.

Marco1408 · « **Reply #103 on:** 7 Oct 2007, 10:49 am »

Quote

The Denon DL-103 is much less expensive from William Thakker in Germany, who has a page on eBay. You are certainly free to buy from anyone you please but it makes no sense to spend more than you have to.

Larry,

Does William Thakker sell the 103R (or 103 Pro) or just the standard 103?

It's my understanding that Dave wants the 103R, which is a much better cartridge than the standard version. The Pro is the best of all the 103 variants.

If you can get the 103R from Mr Thakker cheaper than Audiocubes or anyone else sells it then go for it

Marco.

Marco1408 · « **Reply #104 on:** 7 Oct 2007, 11:02 am »

Quote

If you plan on using the Denon DL-103, a low compliance cartridge, the mass of the standard arm and the damping tray are better suited to controlling it keeping the stylus in the groove and damping resonance feeding back through the arm as the result of using the low compliance cartridge.

Interesting point. I didn't realise the titanium arm was of lower effective mass than the standard arm. Is that actually the case? I must check the manuals. As far as I know the titanium arm has an effective mass of 12g, which suits the 103 almost perfectly (though the additional mass gained by installing the brass counterweight balance optimises this further) so in that case the standard arm must have an effective mass of more than 12g. Regardless of that, however, the titanium version is the better arm as it offers greater mechanical rigidity. If a 103 is being used, the titanium arm is the one I would want for that reason regardless if it is slightly llighter than the stock arm. The overall mass can be optimised later by installing a brass counterweight and, more significantly, a Zu Supreme metal alloy headshell.

Marco.

lcrim · « **Reply #105 on:** 7 Oct 2007, 11:13 am »

Thakker's best deal is on the DL-103 for $148 I think that the best deal on the 103R and PRO are from this eBay seller in Japan http://stores.ebay.com/Joyful-Japan_Audio-Cartridge_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZ8759052QQftidZ2QQtZkm

As far as transformers are concerned, the Auditorim 23 from Tone Imports http://www.toneimports.com/auditorium23/a23stepup.html
is from all reports, one of if not the best. Very pricey @ $995

Marco1408 · « **Reply #106 on:** 7 Oct 2007, 11:26 am »

Interesting link to that Ebay seller in Japan. I like his range of cartridges, and notice that the 103 Pro is available for $415 and the 103R for $250.

Hey, it makes sense to buy it wherever it's available the cheapest.

I think the Auditorium 23 is likely to be out with Dave's budget, and if not, IMO he's better off going for the AU-S1 as it has been specifically designed to be used with Denon cartridges (by Denon) and it's $210 cheaper!

http://cgi.ebay.com/Denon-AU-S1-Step-Up-Transformer-for-MC-Cartridge_W0QQitemZ190152764980QQihZ009QQcategoryZ48648QQcmdZViewItem

Marco.

Marco1408 · « **Reply #107 on:** 7 Oct 2007, 08:08 pm »

Larry,

Can I ask where you obtained the price for the Auditorium 23 ($995)?

I've looked at the site, and the review therein, and can't see anywhere where it says how much it costs.

Cheers.

Regards,
Marco.

lcrim · « **Reply #108 on:** 7 Oct 2007, 09:05 pm »

I spoke with Tone Imports last week about the Shindo Aurieges preamp which only has a MM phono section and they recommended the Auditorium 23 tranny for use with it. The Aurieges has 16 dB gain in the line section and 40 dB in the phono section. Its' also somewhat pricey @ $3895 w/ the phono. The combined price is bit high but they are very nice toys.

dmckean · « **Reply #109 on:** 8 Oct 2007, 02:14 am »

Quote from: Marco1408 on 7 Oct 2007, 10:40 am

Hi Dave,

Quote
Would this transformer work with the Denon cartridge? The same guy that sells the isoplatmat here in North America sells that MC stepup for $295.

Good choice and excellent link. I forgot about the Rothwell!

Yes it would definitely 'work'. I rate the Rothwell highly as a step-up device for general use, and it offers very good sound-per-dollar value. I've not heard one with a 103, though. The main reason I recommended the Denon and Highphonic units is because they have been matched with and specifically designed to optimise the performance of the 103. Apart from gain, you have other considerations such as loading and impedance - these are important electrical values to get correct if you want to hear a cartridge at its best. It's no accident that MC cartridges from top manufacturers like Audio Note, Kondo, etc, are all designed with dedicated step-up transformers to optimise their perfomance, and in that respect the Denons are no different.

However, at its price point, the Rothwell offers exceptional value for money and is likely to be a good sounding unit. If $295 is your budget it's a viable option. There is also an obvious cost advantage for you to buy from the States. The only reservation I have with the Rothwell is that it is an unknown quantity, as far as partnering the DL-103R or Pro is concerned. I've used the Denon and Highphonic units and *know* they work extremely well with the 103, so in that respect the Denon or Highphonc units are a safe bet. What would I do in your position? Probably go for the 103 Pro and Highphonic unit together from Swing Audio (as per the link I posted earlier) for reasons above. Yes, it's a slightly more expensive solution, but my thoughts on this matter are that you're only doing it once so get it right first time with no (possible) regrets. But of course the decision is up to you.

Quote
Also, if cost were no object (it's an object with me obviously), would it be worth it to import the 1200MK4 for the Titanium arm and give it all the KAB mods?

No, definitely not. As Larry correctly points out, KAB do a quality check on the table that is invaluable, and even more significantly, why buy a MK4 1200 when you can get a MK5GSE (same as mine) with the titanium arm, from KAB? Buy your table from KAB and get Kevin to do the mods for you - job done!

Marco.

Hi Marco,

I missed the fact that the SL-1210M5GSE has the same Titanium tonarm as the MK4. I had read elsewhere that the only difference between the M5GSE and the MKII/5 was digital pitch control and more pitch control range. But now I see that it does.

As for the transformer I think I'm just going to wait and order the table now and pay it all off and then make a decision whether I want to pay $1000 for a transformer or go with something more modest.

Marco1408 · « **Reply #110 on:** 8 Oct 2007, 09:10 am »

Thanks for the info, Larry.

Dave,

Sounds like a smart plan. You'll find Kevin excellent to deal with. I too went for the MK5 because of the titanium arm, and also because it's an immaculately finished unit - it really does look gorgeous, especially when compared to the other direct-drive decks available.

There also may be some good news for you. Since reading about the Auditorium 23 in Larry's link to Tone Imports I have decided to buy one!

This means that my Highphonic HP-T5S MC step-up transformer is for sale, which may be of interest to you. It's in mint condition with all the original packaging. If you're interested I'll do you a good deal. And I have a spare DL-103 Pro for sale, which I was keeping as back up for when I wear out the one I've got. But since you seem quite keen on the 103 I thought it might be nice for you to have the two together.

If you're interested, send me a PM here or email me at:

framed6images@aol.com.

Regards,
Marco.

lcrim · « **Reply #111 on:** 8 Oct 2007, 03:17 pm »

I asked Kevin about the "titanium" tonearm. Its his understanding that the term "titanium" refers to the finish not the material itself.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #112 on:** 8 Oct 2007, 04:00 pm »

Quote from: lcrim on 8 Oct 2007, 03:17 pm

I asked Kevin about the "titanium" tonearm. Its his understanding that the term "titanium" refers to the finish not the material itself.

Titanium is not a precious metal ....so I guess it could be more than surface plating of titanium

It almost certainly would strengthen the arm if it were at least partially titanium (titanium mixed with most metals make them stronger I know...gold, for instance achieves near maximum strength with a 1% mix of titanium)

That would be a neat upgrade from Technics if the arm itself was partially titanium...but I'd think they'd market it more stenuously if they did. So, it's likely just plating finish on it.

Marco1408 · « **Reply #113 on:** 8 Oct 2007, 05:51 pm »

Mmmm... I'm sure I read somewhere that the arm has titanium in its construction. I think the titanium factor is a lot more than the just the colour and finish. I'll look into it. Meanwhile here's an interesting link:

http://www.panasonic.com/consumer_electronics/technics_dj/prod_features_sl1210m5g.asp

Note the "improved tonearm construction" and "gimballed suspension" of the MK5G's arm compared to what's on the 'lesser' models.

Marco.

Marco1408 · « **Reply #114 on:** 8 Oct 2007, 06:46 pm »

Found it!

Check this link: http://technics.junglist.pl/

Look under "Models" and observe the following in reference to the MK4 (which continues on the MK5):

Quote

The metal parts of the deck were rumoured to be platinum plated but this is not the case, rather, it has a titanium tonearm section.

Marco.

dmckean · « **Reply #115 on:** 8 Oct 2007, 11:34 pm »

When I ordered today Kevin let me know that the current build cycle time is approx three weeks. Threads like this one must be causing some demand.

Marco1408 · « **Reply #116 on:** 8 Oct 2007, 11:37 pm »

Yeah and I'm on 20%

Marco.

dmckean · « **Reply #117 on:** 8 Oct 2007, 11:37 pm »

Also on the tonearm, if the titanium was just the finish wouldn't it be titanium colored and not bright shiny fake platinum finish?

Marco1408 · « **Reply #118 on:** 8 Oct 2007, 11:40 pm »

Dave, I think there's no doubt the arm is titanium, as I proved in my earlier post.

Don't worry about the three week wait, it'll be well worth it.

Marco.

dmckean · « **Reply #119 on:** 8 Oct 2007, 11:57 pm »

I'm not worried about it. I'm just happy I finally pulled the trigger and I have a new toy coming soon.