[miklorsmith]

My thought is that detail is not inherently exclusive of musicality and nobody wants their music to sound like euphonic mush.  So, it's oversimplifying to just say one or the other.

When spending bucketloads of money, it is probably fair to expect healthy doses of both, though even then it's a balance.  In a perfect world, your audio system would get everything right and would sound exactly like a live performance with all the pops, smacks, decays, and overtones that go along with that.

Sadly, that is not reality.  Rather, products are voiced with many considerations in mind.  How many annoying CDP's have we all heard?  Why?  In my experience, the pursuit of ever-increasing detail brings those details to the fore, to the detriment of the holistic fabric.  The listener's attention can be distracted for a short listening session with "wow, listen to those sparkly highs".  Unfortunately, upon arriving home, the same listener realizes something isn't quite right but boy those cymbals are sure prominent.

Digital sources, especially DAC stages generally fall on either this side, or the side of the Paradisea, which favors musicality over the last bit of extension.  Once hearing a system done right like this, it's amazing how relaxing the music becomes.  It actually is possible to just let it wash over like waves by the sea.  Ultimately, this can also be overdone, leaving a question over what's missing.

As price point goes up, it is fair to expect more of both elements.  However, in the financial reality of the real world, one has to choose to some degree.

[echo1]

My thought is that detail is not inherently exclusive of musicality and nobody wants their music to sound like euphonic mush.  So, it's oversimplifying to just say one or the other.

When spending bucketloads of money, it is probably fair to expect healthy doses of both, though even then it's a balance.  In a perfect world, your audio system would get everything right and would sound exactly like a live performance with all the pops, smacks, decays, and overtones that go along with that.

Sadly, that is not reality.  Rather, products are voiced with many considerations in mind.  How many annoying CDP's have we all heard?  Why?  In my experience, the pursuit of ever-increasing detail brings those details to the fore, to the detriment of the holistic fabric.  The listener's attention can be distracted for a short listening session with "wow, listen to those sparkly highs".  Unfortunately, upon arriving home, the same listener realizes something isn't quite right but boy those cymbals are sure prominent.

Digital sources, especially DAC stages generally fall on either this side, or the side of the Paradisea, which favors musicality over the last bit of extension.  Once hearing a system done right like this, it's amazing how relaxing the music becomes.  It actually is possible to just let it wash over like waves by the sea.  Ultimately, this can also be overdone, leaving a question over what's missing.

As price point goes up, it is fair to expect more of both elements.  However, in the financial reality of the real world, one has to choose to some degree.

Ya that to.

[chaz1]

.......I'm opened to comparing both and i know most of you in Audio Circle like tubes and won't have it any other way. ....

Not true at all.
I've been reading this board for several years, and it is my distinct impression that most members here, or at least most of the chatter,  are markedly weighted toward the SS camp.

Why do you think most everyone leans toward ss? Cause everytime i mention what im looking for but i want non fatiguing sound..i get several feeding back i should go tube. I have to admit that i want to hear some good tube stuff to see for myself. As mentioned before..ive hear a CJ mid level tubed pre with there top solid state and mid level joseph audio. And while it moved me it didnt punch me in the chest like good ss. But the system was roughly 40k in price difference, with the levinson combos being more. My whole goal here is to get as close if not better than live sound at a fraction of the cost. Thats why i want to hear Odyssey, used Belles 350 reference or even used 500 dna for amps. Not sure about pre yet because im not quite sold on a tubed pre. The salk and sp speakers seems to be the ticket from what i understand.

[95bcwh]

1st step, get a Salk, it's more transparent, has sharper and more precise imaging than the $20k B&W 800, and the $18k JM-Lab Utopia Alto that I just heard over the weekend. This is something that you'll be very likely to keep.

Then comes to preamp, I will be looking at Modwright, Aksa, or SAS, I will go for the one that offer 30 days home trials. If you're a detail freak then I will suggest a Placette active linestage. 

Then, get a Moscode 401HR, taking advantage of 33-1/3 free trial. It's one class above the Belles 350A that I heard few months ago, plus I don't think you can try Belles for free. I think Odyssey Audio offers free trial so there's no absolutely no harm getting it so you can do A/B with the Moscode to see if it's worth spending more money.

As I said, properly time the arrival of Paradisea and the Benchmark.

I think you will very likely end up with a system costing just under $15k and yet far exceeded what you've heard in the $50k system.

And don't forget one thing - room treatment.

Why do you think most everyone leans toward ss? Cause everytime i mention what im looking for but i want non fatiguing sound..i get several feeding back i should go tube. I have to admit that i want to hear some good tube stuff to see for myself. As mentioned before..ive hear a CJ mid level tubed pre with there top solid state and mid level joseph audio. And while it moved me it didnt punch me in the chest like good ss. But the system was roughly 40k in price difference, with the levinson combos being more. My whole goal here is to get as close if not better than live sound at a fraction of the cost. Thats why i want to hear Odyssey, used Belles 350 reference or even used 500 dna for amps. Not sure about pre yet because im quite sold on a tubed pre. The salk and sp speakers seems to be the ticket from what i understand.

[miklorsmith]

We are far afield here.  Kick in the chest, as you say, is a function of speaker, amp, and room.  You've listed good amps that would work well with the speakers you've listed.  

Your source and preamp are then places where you will make choices on how you want to voice the system.  Tubes are often held up as system relaxers because they often do that.  Want some SETish magic in your SS system, get a nice 6sn7 preamp.  You won't find the same degree of tubiness elsewhere, outside the amp, if SS amps are on the table.

[chaz1]

Thanks 95 for the feed back and options to choose that puts out very good sound. I will have to go used if i am to step up in the belles 2600, moscode ?? and modwright 1600. Im trying to keep this under 10k or so and thats before purchasing rack, plasma, wires and as you mentioned room treatments. So no doubt it will have to b e used or new Odyssey. Good feedback from you on the Salks speakers they must rock!


1st step, get a Salk, it's more transparent, has sharper and more precise imaging than the $20k B&W 800, and the $18k JM-Lab Utopia Alto that I just heard over the weekend. This is something that you'll be very likely to keep.

Then comes to preamp, I will be looking at Modwright, Aksa, or SAS, I will go for the one that offer 30 days home trials. If you're a detail freak then I will suggest a Placette active linestage. 

Then, get a Moscode 401HR, taking advantage of 33-1/3 free trial. It's one class above the Belles 350A that I heard few months ago, plus I don't think you can try Belles for free. I think Odyssey Audio offers free trial so there's no absolutely no harm getting it so you can do A/B with the Moscode to see if it's worth spending more money.

As I said, properly time the arrival of Paradisea and the Benchmark.

I think you will very likely end up with a system costing just under $15k and yet far exceeded what you've heard in the $50k system.

And don't forget one thing - room treatment.

Why do you think most everyone leans toward ss? Cause everytime i mention what im looking for but i want non fatiguing sound..i get several feeding back i should go tube. I have to admit that i want to hear some good tube stuff to see for myself. As mentioned before..ive hear a CJ mid level tubed pre with there top solid state and mid level joseph audio. And while it moved me it didnt punch me in the chest like good ss. But the system was roughly 40k in price difference, with the levinson combos being more. My whole goal here is to get as close if not better than live sound at a fraction of the cost. Thats why i want to hear Odyssey, used Belles 350 reference or even used 500 dna for amps. Not sure about pre yet because im quite sold on a tubed pre. The salk and sp speakers seems to be the ticket from what i understand.

[chaz1]

.......I'm opened to comparing both and i know most of you in Audio Circle like tubes and won't have it any other way. ....

Not true at all.
I've been reading this board for several years, and it is my distinct impression that most members here, or at least most of the chatter,  are markedly weighted toward the SS camp.

Why do you think most everyone leans toward ss? Cause everytime i mention what im looking for but i want non fatiguing sound..i get several feeding back i should go tube. I have to admit that i want to hear some good tube stuff to see for myself. As mentioned before..ive hear a CJ mid level tubed pre with there top solid state and mid level joseph audio. And while it moved me it didnt punch me in the chest like good ss. But the system was roughly 40k in price difference, with the levinson combos being more. My whole goal here is to get as close if not better than live sound at a fraction of the cost. Thats why i want to hear Odyssey, used Belles 350 reference or even used 500 dna for amps. Not sure about pre yet because im not quite sold on a tubed pre. The salk and sp speakers seems to be the ticket from what i understand.

I find your statement :"My whole goal here is to get as close if not better than live sound at a fraction of the cost" very disturbing. As a musician, take my friendly advice and seek help.

why do you find disturbing in wanting damn good sound at the fraction of the cost of 50,000+ systems?
It was just a figure of speech refering to wanting live sound or better than live sound. Please don't tell me you havent heard the expression..Wow! the sound was better than being at the actual event.

[WEEZ]

Methinks there is an attempt to equate frequency abberations, or playback distortions of one kind or another with 'detail'. (actually, I think 'detail' is either on the recording, or it's not). A better description for playback equipment would be 'resolution', I suppose.

Either way, if so-called 'listener fatigue' is to be avoided...and it should...., lowering the resolution isn't the way to do it. Products that present frequency and timbre in a balanced fashion will be less fatiguing...but may still have excellent resolution.....

I suspect the the Paradisea may well be doing just that.

WEEZ

[95bcwh]

Zybar bought a $20k Vandy 5A, he is probably going to sell his Salk HT3, so you may want to talk to him..

Go DIY for room treatment if you're trying to save some money.

Thanks 95 for the feed back and options to choose that puts out very good sound. I will have to go used if i am to step up in the belles 2600, moscode ?? and modwright 1600. Im trying to keep this under 10k or so and thats before purchasing rack, plasma, wires and as you mentioned room treatments. So no doubt it will have to b e used or new Odyssey. Good feedback from you on the Salks speakers they must rock!

[chaz1]

Zybar bought a $20k Vandy 5A, he is probably going to sell his Salk HT3, so you may want to talk to him..

Go DIY for room treatment if you're trying to save some money.

Thanks 95 for the feed back and options to choose that puts out very good sound. I will have to go used if i am to step up in the belles 2600, moscode ?? and modwright 1600. Im trying to keep this under 10k or so and thats before purchasing rack, plasma, wires and as you mentioned room treatments. So no doubt it will have to b e used or new Odyssey. Good feedback from you on the Salks speakers they must rock!

Yes i know..
Ive already talked to him. I think he is a bit hesitant at this point on selling them. I told him to hit me up when he is ready. I kinda want a different wood veneer than what he has..but my whole point here is to save $$$. We will see.

C

[toobluvr]

Zybar bought a $20k Vandy 5A, he is probably going to sell his Salk HT3, so you may want to talk to him..

And you just missed a nice deal on his amp!

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=32910.0

Great amps!
I own a pair.     

[toobluvr]

Methinks there is an attempt to equate frequency abberations, or playback distortions of one kind or another with 'detail'. (actually, I think 'detail' is either on the recording, or it's not). A better description for playback equipment would be 'resolution', I suppose.

Either way, if so-called 'listener fatigue' is to be avoided...and it should...., lowering the resolution isn't the way to do it. Products that present frequency and timbre in a balanced fashion will be less fatiguing...but may still have excellent resolution.....

I suspect the the Paradisea may well be doing just that.

WEEZ

Well said, Weez.

Unnatural detail is the culprit.  Oftentimes, a piece of gear gives the impression of lots of detail, but if not rendered accurately and naturally with the correct tonal balance and harmonics, it becomes tiring and grates on ya.

Loads of unnatural detail = analytical sound = listener fatigue = gear merry-go-round.

I'm lazy, so when I refer to gear that is hyper-resolute, this is the relationship to which I refer.  I suspect many others do the same.

It is my experience that while supreme resolution and musicality are not mutually exclusive, it is a tough balancing act that is hard to pull off.  Truly accurate resolution with loads of natural detail is indeed musical and involving, but usually costs big bucks to acquire.

[echo1]

Methinks there is an attempt to equate frequency abberations, or playback distortions of one kind or another with 'detail'. (actually, I think 'detail' is either on the recording, or it's not). A better description for playback equipment would be 'resolution', I suppose.

Either way, if so-called 'listener fatigue' is to be avoided...and it should...., lowering the resolution isn't the way to do it. Products that present frequency and timbre in a balanced fashion will be less fatiguing...but may still have excellent resolution.....

I suspect the the Paradisea may well be doing just that.

WEEZ

Well said, Weez.

Unnatural detail is the culprit.  Oftentimes, a piece of gear gives the impression of lots of detail, but if not rendered accurately and naturally with the correct tonal balance and harmonics, it becomes tiring and grates on ya.

Loads of unnatural detail = analytical sound = listener fatigue = gear merry-go-round.

I'm lazy, so when I refer to gear that is hyper-resolute, this is the relationship to which I refer.  I suspect many others do the same.

It is my experience that while supreme resolution and musicality are not mutually exclusive, it is a tough balancing act that is hard to pull off.  Truly accurate resolution with loads of natural detail is indeed musical and involving, but costs big bucks to acquire.

Ya that to.

[rumatt]

I just got my Paradisea today.   It's very smooth to listen to, and as expected it's quite a bit more laid back than the other DAC's I've had: Stello DA100, Citypulse, Scott Nixon USB Chibi (NOS, non-tube), Bel Canto DAC2.

EDIT: DISCLAIMER, these impressions were when my system wasn't setup properly, as discussed later.

However, it also sounds almost muffled compared to the Nixon Chibi (the only other DAC I have currently), which seems lighter and has more zing to it.  These are pretty poor words I'm using to describe it, but you get the impression.   I've got a few other tubes I'm going to try eventually, so these are just very early impressions.   I think I might learn to like the sound, particularly when listening for longer periods of time.  It's not fatiguing at all.  I'm going to listen to the Paradisea for a week or so, then see if I can go back to the Chibi.  At that point, I might think the Chibi makes my ears bleed.   

Has anyone compared a Paradisea to a Scott Nixon TubeDac+?  They're both well respected, cheap tube dacs.  There was a TubeDac on ebay the other day and I was gonna bid on it to compare it to the Paradisea, but I forgot and the auction ended.   

[machine]

rumatt,

I would listen to that unit for a while longer - I would be surprised if it had 25 hours total on it. 

The WE 396A in it now, has even less time.

Enjoy...

[rumatt]

I have the original tube in now.   I had a WE396A for the first 30 mins or so, but then decided I wanted to start from the original and move up.

I plan to go back to it soon.  I also have:

2 WE396A
4 used Bendix 2C51 tubes
2 new Heintz & Kaufman 5670 tubes

All bought used off ebay by the original owner of the DAC (machine).   BTW, thanks Machine!   The packing was great and everything was as-described.     

[rumatt]

I would listen to that unit for a while longer - I would be surprised if it had 25 hours total on it. 

The WE 396A in it now, has even less time.

Cool thanks!   I'm new to tubes.   Do they generally take a while to break in?

[lonewolfny42]

Has anyone compared a Paradisea to a Scott Nixon TubeDac+?  They're both well respected, cheap tube dacs.

I've heard the SN TubeDac on a few occasions in the past...it was OK. Heard the Paradisea at the last Rave...liked it....bought one....and I'm enjoying it now...been about a week.
Smooth, natural, and very easy to listen to....no fatigue This is with the stock tube. Have a few other tubes here to try...WE396A, Heintz & Kaufman 5670, 2C51....just have not gotten to it....but I will.

As for how it sounds, I thought of this....sounds like a good Gibson Les Paul tone....while other Dac's tend to sound like a Fender Strat...and there's only so much you can take of that....

[Gordy]

Lonewoof, I thought you owned a SN Tube dac.  What was it I compared to the P3a a couple of years back 

[Scott F.]

As for how it sounds, I thought of this....sounds like a good Gibson Les Paul tone....while other Dac's tend to sound like a Fender Strat...and there's only so much you can take of that....

Great analogy