[markC]

No offence to anyone, but in my audio endevours of late, the last thing I want is HI FI sound. I want REAL. I've had good hi fi sound for years and IMO, the OB b200's are closer to real than I've experienced B4. My personal setup requires bass augmentation to satisfy my listening needs, each to their own I suppose. I've yet to hear the natural timbre of female voice portrayed so accurately until now with the OB's. I think that the room has a lot to do with the outcome of baffle/wing setup, as I read many different opinions and observations. My centre baffle is 10"w and the wings are 10" and 8". Works for me. I've tried several different sizes made from thin plywood, etc. and these are the dimensions that suited me best. I like the drivers lower to the floor-23" and tilted back 4*. The baffles are 56" out from the front wall and toed in so that, I'd say, cross just behind my head. Baffles are 40" tall and will be veneered in 1/8" cork-front and back. Just have the cork stapled on the front for the test baffles. Just wanted to share my experience and say that I'm NOT going back!

[chadh]

This may sound stupid, but I'm working under some serious constraints here: is there any point in making OBs on baffles that are only about 24" high?  I've been set the challenge of finding speakers for our second system that are maximally unobtrusive and stand no more than 24" off the ground.

Presuming that this will involve some significant sound compromises, would the B200 drivers be wasted in this configuration?  Or is it worth a try? 

Any advice for making the best of things in this situation?  Failing the OB plan, I'll have to use little monitors on really short (1' high) stands.

Thanks,

Chad

[opnly bafld]

Chad,
How far out from the window can you place them?
If you can pull them out a bit maybe you can place the driver near the top and use a wing over the driver.
Tilt them back a few degrees and I don't see why they wouldn't sound better than any other speaker placed low.
My  $.02

Lin

[Vinnie R.]

No offence to anyone, but in my audio endevours of late, the last thing I want is HI FI sound. I want REAL. I've had good hi fi sound for years and IMO, the OB b200's are closer to real than I've experienced B4. My personal setup requires bass augmentation to satisfy my listening needs, each to their own I suppose. I've yet to hear the natural timbre of female voice portrayed so accurately until now with the OB's. I think that the room has a lot to do with the outcome of baffle/wing setup, as I read many different opinions and observations. My centre baffle is 10"w and the wings are 10" and 8". Works for me. I've tried several different sizes made from thin plywood, etc. and these are the dimensions that suited me best. I like the drivers lower to the floor-23" and tilted back 4*. The baffles are 56" out from the front wall and toed in so that, I'd say, cross just behind my head. Baffles are 40" tall and will be veneered in 1/8" cork-front and back. Just have the cork stapled on the front for the test baffles. Just wanted to share my experience and say that I'm NOT going back!

Hi MarkC,

Sounds like you have a similar set up as my baffles, only a little shorter in height and a little bit shorter wings.  I agree with you.... it is all about REAL, not Hi Fi!  The OB sound that I am getting is very REAL.

Hi Stempy,

Yes, the 12" Batanis driver uses what appears to be these stick-on felt circles.  I've actually experimented with them on my B200s (purchased them at home depot...a dark brown color and on a sheet with multiple diameter circles.  It is getting late and this is something that I'll post about later.  I am looking forward to hearing your experience with the Planet 10 phase plugs. 

-Vinnie

[scorpion]

Gentlemen,

My definition of Hi-Fi is sound reproduction "as close as possible to the real thing". On the speaker side, dealing with dynamic speaker chassis, that might be accomplished in different ways but the OB-way seems to me both the simplest and possibly the soundest way to go. However, that of course doesn't mean that objective criteria must not be met. Like, that a single B200 on an OB will not produce 90 dB at 40 Hz whithout distortion, or more likely burn to death if you try to accomplish it. Like that, according to independent measurements published this year in two german DIY papers "Klang & Ton" and "Hobby Hi-Fi", both confirm a rise in B200's frequency response of about 10 dB between 800 Hz and 2100 Hz. This is easily heard and is now also objectively measured. When you have cured those shortcomings the B200s has a very natural and uncoloured sound be it reproduction of female voices or musical instruments and OBs will not degrade that sound.

Windchaser,

My somewhat stingy comments obviously hit you. Let me make some further remarks. Visaton has an own forum for their speakers (in German). Phase plugs appeared on Ebay quite early this year and they were discussed there. The designers said that of course they had tested phase plugs but the plugs did not improved the speaker.

I do not totally agree with the Visaton squad. When you play sinewave-tones over the B200 you hear that the are very beamy in their frequency dispersion. Beamy both in the horizontal and the vertical space.  And not uniformingly beamy but rather random even for a single tone. You don't get those beautiful lobes that manufactors and testers use to publish. I have found the same thing to be true also of the Ciare 250. Having heard those sinewaves you are totally astonished by the fact that the speakers can reproduce music so well and relatively homogenous in a given plane. Now I would like to know if the dispersion, imaging and midrange improvments that you speak of is not gained by limiting treble extension ?

/Erling

[Stempy]

Yes, the 12" Batanis driver uses what appears to be these stick-on felt circles.  I've actually experimented with them on my B200s (purchased them at home depot...a dark brown color and on a sheet with multiple diameter circles.  It is getting late and this is something that I'll post about later.  I am looking forward to hearing your experience with the Planet 10 phase plugs." 

-Vinnie

I have tried it as well, , just yesterday in fact;interested to hear your findings. And yes it does have an impact from what I can here from my brief session. Haven't listened long enough to determine the pro's and cons. But yes I feel lobing is minimized, greater focus, and more air around instruments. If it's due to a drop off in high end extension, I can't say yet. But it is a neat little harmless excercise and will listen further tonight.

[-Richard-]

Hi Chadh ~

I think I am picking up from your post and question the precise spirit of adventure that
makes working with OB in some form of DIY application so much fun ~

So I for one would like to encourage you to jump in and try something... OK, you have
limited air space (2 feet from the floor) in your "second room"... that should present you
with some challenging but not dismissive opportunities to get your feet wet so-to-speak ~

I suspect that what you hear may wind up replacing your "main" speakers in your main system!!!!

Yes, Chadh... IT IS THAT GOOD!!!!!!

Follow JohninCR's good advice here... make a mock-up baffle using easy to control materials
and experiment with shapes and positions for the B200's and report back to this thread
with your findings... there is a Japanese designer that used a low wide baffle a-ways-back...
Oh yes... here it is: 

http://members.myactv.net/~je2a3/open.htm

Take a look at this and go from there ~

Warm regards ~ Richard ~

[-Richard-]

To all those audio enthusiasts turned quasi-scientists with a slide rule neatly engineered into
their DNA... it may interest you to know that according to a thorough examination of
all the data with the most modern, astringent and exhaustive test criteria applied:
Bumble Bees cannot fly!!!!

Warm Regards ~ Richard ~

[scorpion]

Well Richard, You can't either and neither can I.

All the best
/Erling

[opnly bafld]

I can when listening to my OBs.

Lin

[markC]

Funny that, I could have sworn that just the other day, as I was listening to my beaming, rising midrange OB's, a bumble bee flew by my window. Seriosly though, I do notice just a bit of sting in the midrange, which I think full cork treatment front and back will help. I've got one baffle half finished and should have both completed this weekend. I'll be sure to post my impressions with the Full Monty cork treatment!

[scorpion]

At least when listening to 'Flight of the Bumble Bee' by Rimskij Korsakov 

/Erling

[-Richard-]

Hi markC ~

The cork idea is intriguing... I would have guessed that it would over-damp the sound
and slow down the signal's dynamic snap... affecting the perception of musical textures,
for example, which depend on transient speed for their cue's ~

On the other hand I can see that your guess, that the cork might smooth out any inherent
anomalies in the B200 drivers frequency range... the question then would be: is there a
price to pay in dynamics for any possible benefit that smoothing brings to the all-over
musical sound field(?)

What I am hearing right now sounds so incredibly real, dynamic, spatial, detailed (in the best
sense... meaning "realistic" sound... layered and nuanced), warm and tonally rich that I am not
concerned with how the "numbers" of the measured flatness of the B200 fair...
I am certain my 4 watt 45 amp designed by Roger Modjeski would not "measure"
as well on the bench as some high powered SS horror machine (this is not a knock against
every SS... just the ones that measure well but sound horrible) ~

Just thinking out loud ~

Warm Regards ~ Richard ~

[Wind Chaser]

Gentlemen,

My definition of Hi-Fi is sound reproduction "as close as possible to the real thing". On the speaker side, dealing with dynamic speaker chassis, that might be accomplished in different ways but the OB-way seems to me both the simplest and possibly the soundest way to go. However, that of course doesn't mean that objective criteria must not be met. Like, that a single B200 on an OB will not produce 90 dB at 40 Hz whithout distortion, or more likely burn to death if you try to accomplish it. Like that, according to independent measurements published this year in two german DIY papers "Klang & Ton" and "Hobby Hi-Fi", both confirm a rise in B200's frequency response of about 10 dB between 800 Hz and 2100 Hz. This is easily heard and is now also objectively measured. When you have cured those shortcomings the B200s has a very natural and uncoloured sound be it reproduction of female voices or musical instruments and OBs will not degrade that sound.

Windchaser,

My somewhat stingy comments obviously hit you. Let me make some further remarks. Visaton has an own forum for their speakers (in German). Phase plugs appeared on Ebay quite early this year and they were discussed there. The designers said that of course they had tested phase plugs but the plugs did not improved the speaker.

I do not totally agree with the Visaton squad. When you play sinewave-tones over the B200 you hear that the are very beamy in their frequency dispersion. Beamy both in the horizontal and the vertical space.  And not uniformingly beamy but rather random even for a single tone. You don't get those beautiful lobes that manufactors and testers use to publish. I have found the same thing to be true also of the Ciare 250. Having heard those sinewaves you are totally astonished by the fact that the speakers can reproduce music so well and relatively homogenous in a given plane. Now I would like to know if the dispersion, imaging and midrange improvments that you speak of is not gained by limiting treble extension ?

/Erling

Scorpion,

When people say they’ve measured the B200’s FR, my first question is on what baffle in what room with what gear?  There is just too many variables for anyone to make any kind of a definitive / objective statement about a drivers FR.

I’m not the least bit obsessed with having a perfectly flat response.  I’ve been in audio since 1975 and high end since 1982.  I’ve got a pretty good ear for when something sounds reasonably balanced or if there are gross anomalies.  I’m not of the opinion that the B200 is the perfect driver, but it isn’t tragically flawed as you imply either.  It can sound very good without any EQ as most folks around here have discovered.  To suggest otherwise just means you need more experience experimenting.

As far as I know, Planet 10 is the only source for a phase plug designed for the B200 and those only became available as of very recent, or at least here on the English speaking part of the planet.  I can’t account for what you claim the Visaton designers discovered, but if you translate and post that would be interesting…

I know what I’ve heard (not measured electronically) between the stock and modified drivers and the differences are as real as the invisible air you breathe.  You may recall from my previous report that there was quite a difference in hours between the tested drivers.  The stock drivers had 50 – 60 hours on them vs approximately 400 hours on the modified.  Nonetheless the differences I heard are substantial, but let me qualify that a little further.

There are many people who believe all CD players, amplifiers and cables sound the same.  There’s no point in arguing with these folks; they honestly can’t discern differences that are quite obvious to those who can.  Such people often conclude that because they can’t hear a difference, neither will anyone else!  Then they make it their mission to ridicule those who can.

I don’t need put something on a bench to quantify its performance.  Neither do I want or need to listen to sine waves.   None of that makes any difference.  Like all things in audio, whether or not a phase plug improves the B200 will depend on ones ability perceive it.

John.

[mcgsxr]

I have a question for those of you who have either experimented with adding subs on the main baffle, or for those with insight into how this can and should be done.

I have been using these baffles for over a year now, and am pleased in general with the sound from 100Hz and up, with my amps.

I have received the 12 inch subs from Mach5Audio, and intend to mount them into the main baffles themselves, as I think I will like it.  I have read every post in this thread at least twice, and been a participant from day one, so I am aware that many have tried this, and many have abandoned this approach - no problem, these continue to be my test baffles, so I am willing to cut into these, and eventually discover that I will do it differently, for the final set of baffles.  That said, I have a fair amount of time in these - from cutting the angle across the top, to the 3/4 inch roundover, to then slicing them in 3, and adding the piano hinge etc, so I would prefer to make an INFORMED decision, about where to mount the subs, relative to the floor, and the b200's.

My b200's are 23 inches to the bottom of the driver, off the floor.  The subs are 12 inches.  There will be 1 b200, and 1 12 inch sub per baffle.  Subs are run in mono, off a plate amp.

I am specifically asking this - where should I install the woofers?

1 - As close as possible to the floor?
2 - A reasonable distance from the floor, say 4 inches?
3 - 1/2 between the floor and b200?
4 - As close as possible to the bottom of the b200?

I will use my plate amp, so I can vary the Hz cutoff from mains to sub, and have historically used it around 125Hz or so, with 12Db slope.

Thoughts?

Thanks to any and all that can guide me along in this adventure!

[markC]

C'mon mcgsxr, you know the answer by now-try and see! Sorry, but I will be of little help here, but as an educated guess, I would say closer to the floor for more bottom end reinforcement. I don't think that close proximity to the b200 is an issue as it would be for a different design,say where you are trying to blend the bass/mid and tweet via a x-over..... You have a large area to load.

Richard

I'm diving in deep here with the cork thing, but not without some thought and research. My thoughts are along the lines of the length of the wave length of the frequency. Above 1700 hz or so, the baffles, (cork or not), should have little to do with the sound produced by the driver itself. So, if I can tame, read dampen, the sting that I believe I am hearing, between say 800 to 1500, the dynamics and presence should not be affected. Hopefully the cork will not squelch the upper bass. I should know after this weekend.

[Dmason]

Cork works. Instant improvement.

Looks good. Doubles as a community calendar.

No thing is for every one. The only rule here is there are NO rules.

[markC]

"Doubles as a community calendar."


Hey! No sticking pins in MY ob's. Could lead to VooDoo, Black Magic.... Who knows what?

[-Richard-]

Voodo and Black Magic... hummmm... now we are getting closer ~

Yes... much closer!!!!

Warm Regards ~ Richard ~

[scorpion]

This is the text in the Visaton forum regarding Phase-Plugs. It was published Feb 1st 2006.

'VISATON
Administrator

Registriert seit: 09.2000
Wohnort: 42781 Haan
Beiträge: 2197
 Die ganze Sache mit der Staubschutzkalotte ist sehr heikel. Ich habe schon alles Mögliche probiert und bisher noch kein besseres Ergebnis erreicht. Eine Versionen mit Phaseplug und eine Hochtönerkalotte aus Gewebe als Staubschutzkalotte waren auch dabei - nichts war besser. Aber auf keinen Fall darf man eine schwerere Kalotte (z.B. aus Metall) verwenden. Überhaupt rate ich in diesem Fall von Eigenversuchen ab. Dazu braucht man wirklich eine gute Messtechnik und man kann sich sehr schnell den teuren Breitbänder versauen.'

My translation:

 The whole thing with the dustcap is very delicate. I already tried all possible one and so far achieved no better result. Versions with Phaseplug and a tweeter dome from wowen fabric as dust-cap also participated - nothing was better. But in no case one may use a heavier cap (e.g. made of metal). I strongly advise against own attempts in this case. One really needs good measuring equipment and techniques and one can very fast destroy the expensive fullranger.

/Erling