[markC]

Oh yes,  the ability to adjust for variations is there.. I'm just stating that it exists and is very apparent. More apparent than I am used to with my old speaks...

[Dmason]

In my experience I would have to say that the type of bass implementation seems to be of less importance than the ability to control XO Fs, and EQ shelving frequencies. Tuning it to the room like any good "PA" system, and once someone gets into good DSP, they will find it is absolutely essential. The great part is that it does little or no damage, existing in the preamplification, digital domain. The B200 really, really, wants to be EQ'd, on OB, as MarkC has suggested. I use the Rane RPM, serious pro audio, and worth every cent. www.rane.com where you can actually draw your curves on the computer, and select parametric and multiband EQ,  and www.behringer.com has the DCX2496, which is supposedly being replaced at some point. Some of the computer based pro audio sound cards have excellent DSP function. I encourage this approach.

Tonight I tried Richard's Rx, but using the Omega SuperHemps in behind, and it sounds FABULOUS. I had been using DIY 60 inch Jumbo-GM Bass For Grown-ups (tm) transmission lines SIM'd for me by GM, using the HiVi M8N 8 inch aluminum cone bass driver (Greg Monfort, thanks again Greg) where I cut the ports on the back, and had the drivers firing -away- this also works extremely well, as long as I can adjust. These really are overkill, and my vote goes for the properly tuned infinite baffle approach, at least for a lower profile.

The combination of the Korneff 45SE on top with the B200 HP@150Hz, and the Signature 30 on the now sealed SuperHemps is astounding. On the floor, with boundary gain they are plenty.    I do agree Richard, with the 45's output relieved of all bass duty, it is thanking me, and has turned it into an absolute muscle amp, its shining City of Light, nestled between the baffles. Vinnie's amp provides black bottomless-ness, and bottled lightning. This is seriously good stuff folks. Listening to Gershwin's Concerto in F, you can tell ol' George had all the street smarts he needed, back in the '20's....my place became infused with the hussle and bussle of the roaring  twenties New York street scene, like some sonic genie flowing out of twin bottles, but under immense pressure, congealing into one form! None of that Barbara Eden candi-fied nonsense here, this is a potentially dangerous nighttime genie, those known as "al ginh," both aesthetically, and electrically, with an hallucinogenic palpability, some quasi-somatic hallucination ...and also with 450 volts across the plates, this is one highly charged ginh, whose lethality is belied by its innocuous, and inviting glow. ...Second Movement: Arpeggiated streams of cars cross the Brooklyn Bridge, and their horns trumpet "beep beep beep," "beep beep beep" now up a semitone, and a hint of increased metre, swirling, now Andre Previn adds his arpeggio of "oncoming traffic," and ALL of it exists in some fantasy laden, three dimensional ether, pulling me into it, as if the holism of the experience were some inescapable aural ...gravity well.

[JohninCR]

Well guys, I'm not going to use any flowery language,
but OB bass kicks boxed bass's butt.  Excluding HT type
extension or dance club output levels, it can be obtained
using surprisingly compact forms. 

Initially we fall in love with OB's because of their open
and natural midrange sound, but that's the easy part.
Just free almost any full range driver from the confines
of a box and let it breath naturally (as long as you get at
least some minimal amount of bass), and you're hooked.
However, if you stop there and accept a boxed bass
solution, that compromise will only leave you looking to
make a change shortly thereafter.

Richard may be the only one here who I would recommend
sticking with boxed bass.  That's because OB bass is very
directional and I envision he and Deb up grooving around in
a tribal rhythm to exotic music, so "sweet spot only" bass
won't work for them.

I have a bunch of cool ideas to try, which I'm quite sure
will work.  I even have a variety of drivers and the wood
to experiment with, but for 6 months now I've had a
complete lack of motivation.  I'd rather spend my free time
listening to music than let a single grain of sawduct fly for
the first time in several years.  That says a lot because I
really like building new ideas.  Everything is just sounding
too good to want to mess with improving it.  The most I
do, other than changing the volume, is to flip the switch
to turn on the sub for HT action movies.  That's with no
EQ, no DSP, and the only thing between my amp and my
drivers is a single coil.

The reason I bring this up is because if you're changing XO
points, bass boost levels, etc, then you still have something
to dial in and your shortcuts are compromises that aren't
satisfying.  I'm not saying my setup is perfect, and I am
pretty sure that biamping with active XO will take me to a
higher level, but a fully boxless reasonably dialed in solution
is so addictive that the chase becomes a distant 2nd to the
music, even for a DIY junkie like me.

Sorry about the long post, but I consider a fullranger with
boxed bass a stopgap solution that will just leave you wanting
more despite how good it can sound.

[oldtimer]

John, OB bass , Box bass, IB bass, all can be equalily satisfying if the implementation is done right. I had OB bass with baffles 1 thru 6 with a range of different drivers and baffle sizes. Never have I had an issue with the amount of bass you can get with OB, and I had bass that went as deep as my subs with some baffles. BUT,and for me this is a BIG BUT, I can get a MUCH better soundstgae with only the B200 in the baffle. Imaging is better, there is a level of clarity that I couldnot get with multi driver baffles. So for me I can achieve a better result with having my B200 baffles 2 meters into the room and my subs 1.1 meters into the room. Not saying this will suit everyone, but this november its 2 yrs, I have been tweaking my system using the B200 as my wideband driver, and trialing many many different configerations. I have settled on what I have now, and I am sure I will still be listening to this combo for some time, at least until I want to try some other alignment and drivers.

Happy listening
Nigel

[JohninCR]

Nigel,

Don't you have a huge room compared to the rest of us?
If I'm remembering your room correctly, then it will be a
big advantage.  It takes some of the room mode effects
out of the equation.  Also, the muddying effects of the
far greater amount of reflections with boxed bass will be
far less in magnitude and more delayed due to the extra
distance travelled.  These are where I believe that OB
bass results prominent SQ advantages for those of us
with acoustically small rooms.

[oldtimer]

Yes John you are right, I do have a big room. This is something that we all have to take into account, and I have tweaked my system in my room, which will different for everybody else. But the room IS the loudspeaker in the end. Just a point about my lasted subs, they are incredibly solid, 100kg each. This has really decoupled the subs from the room, and the bass seems to float in the room. Go out of the room and the bass does not follow you, which is different from all other versions in testing. Again each person will have to tweak their system to match their room.

Happy listening
Nigel

[Nuuk]

Not saying this will suit everyone, but this november, I have been tweaking my system using the B200 as my wideband driver, and trialing many many different configerations.

You are way ahead of the rest of us Nigel! 

[Nuuk]

I was actually referring to your time zone Nigel! Over here in good old GMT it is still August! 

[markC]

"The reason I bring this up is because if you're changing XO
points, bass boost levels, etc, then you still have something
to dial in and your shortcuts are compromises that aren't
satisfying."

I don't think your entirely grasping what I am saying here. What I mean is that on different recordings, say Holly Cole which is recorded bass heavy vs. say David Claton-Thomas, (the new live disc), which is recorded bass shy, there is a need to adjust the x-o freq. somewhat and especially the bass volume. I believe the more detailed the playback system, the more apparent this is. If you can set your eqing and the system sounds the same for freqency responce magnitude on Every recording, something is amuck.

[-Richard-]

Obviously the integration of some form of bass augmentation for our B200 OB's
is breeding different feedback from our community of users that participate in this thread ~

Good!!!! If we can keep things nicely lit and open for examination and we are reasonably
fluid and not fixated on any one approach then this inquiry will yield a great deal of
material for us to review... and help us in our own explorations ~

JohninCR has a great deal of passion for his approach and expresses himself with
the energy of a zealot... if we accept him as he is... as a sort of Thomas Pain of the
OB paradigm... then we can relax a bit with his fire-brand proselytizing style and smoothly
fold his insights into our ongoing data bank of approaches ~

Please... lets keep sharing our insights with each other... personally I am entirely open
to every approach... as far as I am concerned the OB paradigm is a continuing work
in progress ~

Richard may be the only one here who I would recommend
sticking with boxed bass.  That's because OB bass is very
directional and I envision he and Deb up grooving around in
a tribal rhythm to exotic music, so "sweet spot only" bass
won't work for them.

What you experienced was my Doppelganger, John ~

Warm Regards ~ Richard ~

[oldtimer]

MarkC, I know exactly what you are saying. I find that there are huge differences in the amount of bass between CD's, and you could easily adjust the amount of bass to match each recording. I have pondered this for a while, and have decided to set my controls to play the CD with the MOST bass ( Fourplay 4) at the right level, and live with listening to the rest of my CD collection with varying levels of bass, Rickie Lee Jones having the least bass . Its problematic but as you say, when you get to a level in your playback system, everything is abundently clear.

Nigel

[EProvenzano]

Hello all,

Thanks for the comments regarding BR and sealed bass systems.  It's obvious to me that the jury is still out on the subject.  I guess I'll pick my poison and season to taste, until I find the potion I like best!

WRT, baffle shape, my better half does not like the look of hinging wings, extended or not.  Would a trapezoid shape approximately 1 foot wide at the top and 3 feet wide at the bottom, by 4 ft high be an advisable choice?  I know I'll need to tinker with the exact dimensions and driver placement, until I find the sound I like, but are there any inherent problems with this shape that I should avoid?

Thanks again!

[opnly bafld]

Nigel,
What I used to do with box speakers, is set up the system to sound best with most recordings and then when recordings had so little bass (i.e. bass missing due to recording) that it made them less enjoyable, I would use a sub.
I find this harder to do with OBs.
Lin

[opnly bafld]

EP.....,
Will you be using 1 driver or 2 (fullrange and bass) per baffle?
I have thought about doing something like that with 2 drivers, but not as wide at the bottom or as narrow at the top.

Lin

[JohninCR]

EProvenzano,
It sounds like you already have a separate bass solution for your OB's.  If so,
then I'd suggest starting with a test baffle that is just large enough to hold
your main drivers at the height you want.  Then experiment using duct tape
and cardboard, scrap wood, etc. to come up with the baffle size that works
for you in your room.  With bass support, you'll probably find that a lot less
baffle is needed than you were thinking.

Nigel and Mark,
I'm not going to waste time in a pissing contest about OB vs boxed bass.  The OB
advantages should be pretty clear by now after 100+ pages, and if you want to
bring the room back fully into play that is your choice.  Of course different recordings
have different amounts of bass.  I'll submit though, that "when you get to a level in
your playback system" that includes a reasonably flat response at your listening
position from around 30hz on up, then you'll be far less inclined to fiddle with the
controls.

Richard,
Sorry if I'm way off base.  That's how my somewhat twisted brain filtered through
your past posts.  If you listen from a fixed position, then IMHO you need OB bass too.
Also, I have no problem carrying the OB purist torch.  Someone should.  I've heard
the light[/b], so I'll spread the word, alone if I have too.  Be thankful that I'm open
minded enough to not be a dipole purist, because then giant baffles and/or lots of
electronic correction would be a requirement for entry to the club.

[opnly bafld]

then giant baffles and/or lots of
electronic correction would be a requirement for entry to the club.

I don't have either, but I still think I am firmly in "the club".

Lin

[-Richard-]

Hi JohninCR ~

Wikipedia defines a doppleganger as: "the ghostly double of a living person."

I was having a bit of fun John (fun: A source of enjoyment, amusement or pleasure) ~

Actually Deb and I do dance quite often in front of our OB panels... especially to
African music from contemporary groups... so your imagination is surprisingly accurate ~

Perhaps when we are able to get a little closer to what an ideal OB bass would be like
by sharing what we have found out on this thread, I might try it ~

However, John, what Deb and I are hearing now is unprecedented in my experience...
everything just sounds extraordinary... audio enthusiasts spend years trying to get their
stereo's to sound like this, and if they stay with commercial offerings, they rarely ever succeed ~

Warm Regards ~ Richard ~

[JohninCR]

Richard,

I knew you were having fun.  I was just making sure I wasn't stepping on toes unintentionally.  You know how the written word is.

I was right after all, you don't need OB bass because it is too directional.  Bass response would change significantly as you dance about the room.  BTW,  I don't think it was your doppleganger that I picked up on, just your "Darkstar side".   

[corloc]

Well, in the subejct of bass.  My little experement with sitting on the floor to listen the Diatone woofers to help the B200's was not good.  The B200 were 16" and the diatones were 6" from the floor ( w/ a low pass filter to about 200hz).   This config. seemed to muddy the bass, and the mids lost alot of detail.  So I just used the B200, that helped but the mids didn't have the same liveliness as at 24" with my Warrior15's.

So I'm back to my earlier cofig. B200 at 24" and Warrior at 16".  I like the bass of the 15's.  

I have just tried the notch filter idea.  I used a 1.5uH and 5 Ohm.  I like the sound. The mids have more wieght and no loss of detail that I can percieve.  The down side is it definatly draws more juice from the amp. 10w pp el84.  The bottom end isn't as tight as before. Has anyone tried Amp5 from 41Hz?  It looks my speed for soldering, and should give me all the current I need. 

Chris

[JohninCR]

Lin,

Yep, you're in.  Like most of us, you can probably even remember that first instant you became "hooked".

Hello, my name is John.  I'm a...