[-Richard-]

Hi Jim ~

I am just as interested in your take on the B200's with David's phase plugs... as I have
already expressed.

In many ways your sonic aesthetics seem to parallel mine in a great many important ways...
also I have grown quite impressed with your technical sense of what is going on under
the hood... so your impressions are very very important to me.

Having two such careful and experienced listeners... not to mention highly respected AC
members... giving their impressions around the same time is more than I could have
ever hoped for... now we will get to the bottom of just what is going on as a result of
inserting David's phase plugs.

Thank you both for sharing. AC is great!!!!!!!

Warmest Regards ~ Richard

[Wind Chaser]

Richard,

As for the HF dispersion opening up it's like this...  Prior to the PP's I used to listen to my B200's turned in about 45 degrees on axis.  This not only sent more HF info my way but gave me the best presentation with respect to sound stage and imaging.  With the PP's, I hardly toed them in at all (maybe 10 degrees) and gave up none of the above plus gained the sonic advantages of the PP as I reported earlier. 

Before and after - two different drivers.  How do I know?  I had two pairs.  One with and one without the PP's.

[-Richard-]

Hi Wind Chaser ~

OK... that seems like a clear indication of what the phase plugs are doing for you in
your room. What is your amplification? That may sound like a strange question but it
helps me to complete the "gestalt" in my mind of what kind of engine is driving
your sound. In my world amplification changes things.

Also, and this is merely a personal insight, what you describe as the differences between
the before and after would not qualify in my thinking as two different speakers... although
I realize you are using the language to help me (and everyone reading this) to understand
the "degree" of the difference in terms of dispersion.

It does not sound like you are saying that there is anything qualitatively different... but
suggest that dispersion characteristics allow for less tow-in.

Of course that in-itself is significant... but precisely how significant may be worth thinking about.

I am very interested to hear more feedback about this issue.

Meanwhile thanks, Wind Chaser... I value your feedback highly... I forgot that you have
already posted about this issue... in any case, I wanted to get a fresh take on it.

I am going through a complete re-evaluation of my system in order to develop it further
in the right direction.

Warm Regards ~ Richard

[eric the red]

This thread is closing in on read 100k times-nice work

[opnly bafld]

This thread is closing in on read 100k times-nice work

And 2 years on May 25th.

[Wind Chaser]

Richard,

I went through a variety of amps but gravitated towards the Charlize, a Tripath 2010 from DIY Paradise.  With a good tube buffer / tube pre in front it’s a pretty special little amp - regardless of price. 

It took me a while to find the original comments I posted comparing the stock vs modified driver, but if you go back to page 89 on July 27th, 2006 you will see what my first impressions were.  Keep in mind the modded drivers had the advantage 300 more hours while the B200's they were being compared to had around 70 to 100 hours at that time.

The way I see, phase plugs are a simple inexpensive mod that are well worth the time and effort.  I wish I could give you an update, but in the interest of living a more diverse life, I divested myself of the audio obsession... at least as far as owning a system and spending waay too much time in front of it aimlessly listening to music.

[-Richard-]

Hi Wind Chaser ~

Thanks for the information.

Everything you say about the "audio obsession" is true... of course if one would care to look
deeply into ones life... the continuous patterns of activity that are repeated for the most part
over and over again... it might become clear that almost everything we do is done with an
obsessive relentless energy... and it is performed unconsciously... there is very little real
sensitivity in our lives.

Audio is actually not the worst obsessive activity I can think of... although admittedly...
an obsession is an obsession... and all obsessions are characterized by an agitated
restlessness... and perhaps an inability to come to resolution. Freud might suggest that
all such activity is a form of masterbation... there is the fevered "wish" and imagined
"fulfilment"... the object of "desire"... then the panicked "waiting" phase for its arrival...
then the sensory "experience" of it... the "peak" sensation... followed by what the French
call the "little death"... and the inevitable disappointment. Then the activity begins all
over again with a different "object" of desire and so on.

That said... there is nothing in my life that can take the place of music. I can live without it...
and have on occasion with no sense of loss... one can tune into the living sounds of nature...
or just the swirl of sound that gathers and ebbs wherever one happens to be... a sort of
detachment would be necessary to "listen" to "life" in that way... as a form of music.

Deb and I work at home... and we listen to music a good part of the day... we do not watch
Television... which fits my idea of wasting ones time perfectly... sometimes we sit in front
of the audio and listen to music for the fun of it... and we use our audio system as the sound
source for watching movies... Deb and I are passionate about movies... Deb is our net flix
DJ... we go through various genres... films from every country in the world... films from
particular periods of time... filmnoir from the forties or fifties for example... our tastes run
rather eclectic at times... and we love Black and White... we even "Ohh" and "Ahh" at the
scintillating and exquisite juxtaposition of light patterns so meticulously worked out in B&W
films.

It is impossible to describe the added dimension that our audio creates when watching films
on our little Sony 20" (diagonal) TV... we sit real close to the TV and the speakers...
the voices appear fully fleshed out with every emotion insinuating itself deep into your
emotional fabric... and when the music appears... it pours into your soul... the effect is
startling... and even though we are watching a tiny screen by todays plasma, LCD, and
protection standards... the audio sound more than makes up for it.

The effect of our audio system on music is no different... many times we are transported
on the wings of our emotions by the singers or strings or oboe... as the music throbs and
pulsates into our room... into our lives... into our emotions.

And that is why I continue to fine-tune our audio life... it is fun if taken in small doses...
and I have really learned how to listen to what audio actually sounds like... and the effect
it has on the music we are listening to and the effect that music has on us.

"Wasting time" is really a modern symptom of restlessness backed up by the myth that
time can be "valued"... in absolute terms there is no such thing as time... it is a mental
construct... and its imagined sense of "movement" is quite different for each culture... and
each period of time the human family has suffered through. Sitting and wasting time should
be seen as a pleasure... it is taking oneself out of time... out of the sense of sever agitation
that drives us to early death filled with worries of every kind... out of the petty despairs of
our live... which are all made up in any case... so we take ourselves out of that horror
of endless responsibilities... endless preoccupations... and we privilege ourselves...
we allow ourselves to fold into a thorough immersion of the music... and if our musical
choices are not simply to agitate us... not simply to overly stimulate us...
we can emerge refreshed and renewed.

That is the magic of music.

Warmest Regards ~ Richard

[mcgsxr]

I have made the leap, and cut the dust caps off my b200's. 

Took me about 30 minutes total, once I gathered the courage to take a sharp blade to my drivers.

I have no measuring gear, and have no stock drivers to compare them to.  I have what must be at least 1000 hours on these drivers (been using them in OB for 2 years), and am unsure how many hours Dave put on them when he initially had them.

First and foremost, I would to thank Planet10 (Dave) for his excellent service.  Simple transation, easy to work with, and great packaging.  The instructions on his website are also quite useful, for those seeking to undertake their own surgery.

http://www.planet10-hifi.com/ - and the b200 specifically here - http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FAL/B200-surgery/B200-surgery.html

It was not hard work, just hard to bring myself to start slicing.  Once I did, it went along OK.  It was challenging to remove enough of the glue ring to get the phase plug in place, and the cone moving freely around it, but some patience, and one sharp Xacto did the trick.

I think that Windchaser describes it perfectly on page 87 or 88 of this thread, but I will speak my mind about the differences.

For me, I have really enjoyed these drivers, especially with either my JVC EX-A1, or my Magnavox EL84 amp – great synergy, and a strange ability to throw a centered image from way outside the sweet spot.  BUT, the treble absolutely beams, for me, in my room, with the stock driver.  When I stand up, the treble fades immediately, until I am double my usual listening distance, then it seems to gel again.

Truthfully, I have many times knelt down in the listening spot, in order to get my ears directly in line with the drivers, and found that the most entrancing, if not comfortable!, way to get the best out of the b200.  My best friend heard these with stock drivers, and immediately said – no treble.  He is 6’8, I am 5’8.  When he took the time to sit on the floor, and get his head closer to where mine normally is, it locked in much better for him.

The addition of the phase plugs does a couple of things.  First and foremost, the dispersion of the highs is significantly improved – less urges to kneel in front of my speakers now!  The air and dimensionality also seems to be improved.  The treble still falls off if I stand at the listening distance (7 feet), but the “sweet” spot is at least 3x the size – ie the shift in FR does not change 1 foot above my listening chair, it is when standing fully, that it is less coherent.

No regrets, this seems well worth the $65 or so, and if careful, you are unlikely to damage anything.

Recommended, IF you personally find that the treble beams for you.

Not sure if that really communciates what I am hearing, but I am happy to try and field questions, as we play along together.

[Wind Chaser]

Richard,

I'm guessing that your large daily dose of music is something you do while you are occupied with work.  With a high end audio system, I have to sit in the sweet spot, close my eyes and focus exclusively on the music.  While the enjoyment of music certainly doesn't require undivided attention, I personally feel it is an obligation if it's coming from an investment of much time and effort, not to mention money and tube life (if there be any tubes).  And if obligation seems like too strong of a word, then I say the system beckons me to the sweet spot where I know I will appreciate the experience all the more.

It's kind of like having sex, you don't do it while watching football or eating a meal... unless your name is George Costanza...  "Not that there is anything wrong with that."

Without the high end audio system, the obligation to exclusively engage my mind and senses in the music disappears.  I still appreciate music, but now the source doesn't matter.  Elevator, AM, FM, CD, whatever, whenever; unless it is a live performance my time and mind are no longer held hostage to a simulated event.

"Wasting time" is really a modern symptom of restlessness backed up by the myth that time can be "valued"... in absolute terms there is no such thing as time... it is a mental construct... and its imagined sense of "movement" is quite different for each culture... and each period of time the human family has suffered through. Sitting and wasting time should be seen as a pleasure... it is taking oneself out of time... out of the sense of sever agitation that drives us to early death filled with worries of every kind... out of the petty despairs of our live... which are all made up in any case...

I have learned how to not despair or worry about anything.  Worry is blind and cannot discern the future.  It is an emotional waste of energy with no intrinsic value.  However, having some meaningful goals with the opportunity to attain them puts value on time.  There is a limited opportunity in each day or a life to achieve ones goals, that inherently puts value on time.  Most people don’t work for free, and I doubt many would if they could.  We all want something in return for our time and effort.  Without time, there can be no effort or achievement. 

Amazingly enough I’ve never been to a funeral and I’m a middle aged baby boomer!   Go figure…  Anyhow, one thing I know for sure is that every dead man is out of time.

[eric the red]

It's kind of like having sex, you don't do it while watching football or eating a meal... unless your name is George Costanza...  "Not that there is anything wrong with that."

"Is that pastrami?"

[-Richard-]

Hi Wind Chaser ~

I like your thinking... I like what you said about:

Elevator, AM, FM, CD, whatever, whenever; unless it is a live performance my time and mind are no longer held hostage to a simulated event.

Also your insight that:

I have learned how to not despair or worry about anything.  Worry is blind and cannot discern the future.  It is an emotional waste of energy with no intrinsic value.  However, having some meaningful goals with the opportunity to attain them puts value on time.  There is a limited opportunity in each day or a life to achieve ones goals, that inherently puts value on time.  Most people don’t work for free...

I am not certain about your insight here:

and I doubt many would if they could.  We all want something in return for our time and effort. 

children are an excellent example here... if they have not been overly conditioned to think
of a reward for their efforts... which is a cultural construct... they will gladly help out in the
spirit of cooperation... there will be many out there who upon reading what I just said will
quote chapter and verse of situations where their children were uncooperative... yes... at home
ones children tend to be uncooperative for specific reasons that reflect our way of life at this
time in the land of the free and the home of the brave... but I have seen children spontaneously
help out on many occasions just to help... and the good feeling they get from helping... that is
not exactly the same thing as a reward... at least not in the context I think you are talking about
here... and just for the record... I have done many things in my life without any sense of a
reward... just for the fun of it or to be helpful... it may well be that the whole concept of a
reward is symptomatic of the basically selfish principles we have all been inducted into in this
rapateous society.

Without time, there can be no effort or achievement.

Exactly... we have invented time in order to place everyone at the yoke... in order to enslave
us in a 10 or 12 hour day without let up... and when we are too old to maintain that inhuman
schedule of endless work we are marginalized into the abyss of uselessness... and from there
we descend into the chaos and confusion of dementia and alzheimer's. It is a fact that most
American men die within 3 years of their retirement.

Anyhow, one thing I know for sure is that every dead man is out of time.

Actually, we do not know that for certain... we know nothing about death... it could be that
after a lifetime of "being in time" our death carries on that absurd condition in some form.
As Nisargadatta says in answer to the question: what happens after death... "the same!!!!!"

Stepping out of time is exactly what the Buddha and Jesus did... that is the ultimate final
transition into the spiritual mind... time stops... once and for all... and we find ourselves
in the "absolute"... in the timeless spaceless truth "beyond" the transitory shifting shadow
world that we take for reality.

Also... most people are not really alive in any case... most of us go through our lives simply
repeating the dead patterns we have assumed at some early stage of our lives. Endless
patterns repeating the same thinking... the same behavior... and that is a kind of death.

I applaud your giving up the audio addiction, Wind Chaser, and I also applaud your understanding
of why you gave it up. It shows enormous maturity and self-knowledge.

Warm Regards ~ Richard

[Wind Chaser]

Hey Richard,

I'd love to respond but after 133 pages of this thread never straying too far from the original subject, I'd hate to be the segue instigator.  Also the subject matter could potentially take us to places forbidden by AC.  It would be better to do it by PM, telephone or even better yet in person, however it’s a bit of a commute from here to there and I don’t have a passport.

[-Richard-]

Hi Wind Chaser ~

It is always a pleasure to share ideas with you.

I suspect... that someday... everything you have learned about audio will result in your
purchasing something small and ergonomically sensible that melts into your life almost
invisibly... and it will render music in a very satisfying way... that will not trigger the need
for anything else.

It is a parallel interest of mine to see if that is not possible... it has occurred to me lately that
in one sense the journey is the thing... that resolution is not really possible because there is
too much to choose from... so... after all the amps... and after all the speaker styles and
ancillary equipment... something small... that does not injure the music too much...
and inexpensive... might be the end of the journey.

Warm Regards ~ Richard

[audiotone]

John,

My best professors, the ones you remember always came off as cantankerous. Whatever that word means. Your studies and designs have been a constant source of amazement to me. This stuff gets me off, and you are the trailblazer. I love all the distillation and good thought going on here.

 I also love the resonant qualities of Spruce, especially when it is found in the bed of a grand piano, but right the way through the orchestra, Spruce everywhere.... My next baffles are going to be made of Spruce. I have wanted to see what type of resonances might come from that, that lend a musical instrument quality to the sound. It makes me think of a wideband driver that can dig abit deeper on OB, the Supravox 215. This driver on a spruce baffle might actually be a very musically resonant combination, which is designed to get down to the low 50's, and exhibit similar bandwidth to the average "minimonitor." I open the table to commentary.

you mean something like this?

more: http://picasaweb.google.com/tony.de.lobelle/20080526VisatonB200SpruceBaffle

[Graham Maynard]

The Dark Star lives !

One aspect of the B200 is 'beaming'.

This can be reduced by using foam fingers as per this link.




I have mentioned and shown this before, but I have yet to hear from someone else who has tried it.

After all, if carefully positioned pieces of felt on a baffle, or foam with a horn can improve reproduction, then why not with an extended range driver like the B200 too ?

This might look odd but it does work !


Cheers ......... Graham.

[audiotone]

Graham,

I saw your "trick" a while ago...
looks interesting.

I have some planet10 phase plugs installed, still evaluating it.
Next I will replace these plugs with spruce plugs...or your option.

The EnABL trick is also on my to do list: kit is ordered and wil come in next week I guess.

kind regards,

Tony

[Wind Chaser]

Those foam fingers look interesting, but I'd suspect that they affect more than the dispersion??  With the phase plugs installed you should find the top end far more diffusive.  Not having to tow your speakers in so much makes for a much wider sound stage.

[dublin78]

I have read a good chunk of this thread, but I have not got the time to go through all of it.

Please could someone summarise the progress with this B200 driver?

Sorry. I hope that this is not deemed too lazy, but I feel that it would be useful for others too.

[dewar]

last I heard the phase plugs were not a good idea, so who knows what the consensus is now.

the basics though, if youre interested buy a pair and stick em in a 4'x3' mdf baffle (wings seem to be the norm). You'll probably be impressed but over time start thinking of bsc circuits(use the search feature for specifics) to tame the rise, and of adding super tweeters or rear tweeters. And you'll need some bass bellow 50hz probably, so look at biamping with a Hawthorne Augie or Eminence Alpha 15.

Theyre still unbeatable for the money I reckon, and a good intro to OB. If you're not entirely happy with them and are looking for a speaker for keeps I would suggest rather than trying to mod them endlessly, to make a jump to something like the Bastanis Prometheus. I dont regret my foray into B200's, it's educational and didnt break the bank, but only with the Bastanis have I found a speaker that is without compromise to my ears, something I can live with forever. cheers

B.

[dublin78]

Thank you Dewar.