[markC]

Forever is a very, very long time. You must really enjoy these Bastanis speaks.

[dewar]

A year is a long time in this hobby for me But I do honestly think these are the last speaker I'll own for, lets say, the foreseeable future, as I havent heard anything better at any price and havent found an Achilles heel in them yet. (I went with an Augie OB bass drivers rather than the spec'd box sub).

I woudnt claim they are likely better than $30,000 Feastrex field coil drivers, but for reasonable money...a different league to the B200's. After replacing the B200's with Hawthorne Sterlings it was like someone had cleaned the windows, going from the Hawthorns to the Prometheus was like removing the window pane entirely. But the B200s are a lot cheaper than either and still very good for the money.

[kyrill]

I took the step to buy these drivers for my OB set up. Did not know this thread in my search for a super mid bass-mid range driver. A lot of posts here around this driver but most if not all find it very musical, which is very important for me The down side ( beaming,  low bass output in OB set up) is not relevant in my setup. I will use the B200 between 150 hz and 1600 hz. The DEQX will take care of its rising response

I have tried the SABA Greencone and the paper cone P.Audio 8 inch drivers ( SN-8MB series II), but the Saba is not transparent enough for me and P.Audio I dont't know yet, it is as if the sound stays too stick at the speakers too often but not always. The P.audio made a big jump in transparency, i mean really big with Ennemoser's original C37 lacquer, also its musicality improved. but still i am not happy and looking for the best mid range within reasonable cost. I wonder why the new Silver Iris coax made such a big jump in price to over 700$ a piece

[dewar]

the monster awakes...

The Sterling Silver Iris? mainly due to better tweeter and very costly passive XO. You'd be sorted with DEQX though. I owned them, not bad. Bastanis better I think, and Feastrex D5nf again. Dont know what you consider reasonable money, but given the price of the DEQX I hope I dont offend by suggesting the Feastrex if youre looking for smooth transparency.

[Mr Content]

A year is a long time in this hobby for me But I do honestly think these are the last speaker I'll own for, lets say, the foreseeable future, as I havent heard anything better at any price and havent found an Achilles heel in them yet. (I went with an Augie OB bass drivers rather than the spec'd box sub).

I woudnt claim they are likely better than $30,000 Feastrex field coil drivers, but for reasonable money...a different league to the B200's. After replacing the B200's with Hawthorne Sterlings it was like someone had cleaned the windows, going from the Hawthorns to the Prometheus was like removing the window pane entirely. But the B200s are a lot cheaper than either and still very good for the money.

Wow, it just shows how their are different strokes for different folks. I had Both the Hawthorns and the Bastanis  ( still got the bastanis, just to good to get rid of, but still gathering dust), and remain using the B200. When this driver is properly optimized in a proper baffle, with magnet mounting, it will, and continues to amaze me.

Mr C

[dewar]

Yeah you are Mt Content  Thats cool, wish I could be happy with just one speaker for more than a year. Though was never in any way unhappy with Prometheus, just curious to hear other drivers, and not wanting to get rid of it because it is such a good speaker. You have the standard or gemni tweeter out of interest? Damn good tweeter the dipole gemni, tempted to mount if above all my future fullranger...

cheers
b

[Mr Content]

Hi b, no I only have the standard tweeter, but I hung another one off the rear in an attempt to create dipole highs. I am sure the Gemini would be better, but very pricey, and their wasn't enough of other thing happening with the speakers to make it worth the extra expense. I tried a dipole ribbon tweeter, which I thought was better than the standard tweeter. I know what you mean about trying other drivers, it can be very interesting. 

Mr C

[Telstar]

Some of the Jamo's are certainly well executed designs and they may benefit from good
engineering as well... however their price tag is around $13,000!!! 

Many of us who are contributing on this thread and who are working with their own designs
have spent far less than $500 in total for all the elements of their Open Baffles...
certainly not much more than $1000. ~

Sooner or later, speaker designers seeing a growing audience for OB designs will begin
to offer "classy" versions of what we are doing ourselves... but for far more money than
any of us would care to spend ~

This was 2006. Now, in 2009 this proved true.
They did. There are more and more fancy OBdesigns that costs from $5,000 to $100,000.

[Telstar]

edit: nevermind

[BrianP]

"Someone mentioned "...before baffle step correction.."  ....this is not about applying circuit suicide to the works.
There is absolutely ZERO point to this exercise if you get into all that stuff, the sad result of which being the light of the music will be completely obscured by an impassable ceramic cloud, -an electrolytic storm with Copper funnel clouds, that will suck the life of the music right out of the mix, leaving you in some confused sonic "Oz" with no ability to hear the blue skies above, and worse yet, no way home. NOTE any contouring should nowadays be done completely in the digital domain, where the signal can remain uncontaminated."

I take it you don't care for passive BSC filters in series with a driver. Neither do I. If you're trying to get the best out of a "fullrange" driver, it should run right off the amplifier. The needed response shaping should be done upstream, at line level.

[Telstar]

If you're trying to get the best out of a "fullrange" driver, it should run right off the amplifier. The needed response shaping should be done upstream, at line level.

 

[gary]

Dewar-

Glad to hear the Bastanis worked out for you. I just read the past couple pages and this thread has me drooling... my system has been crated for two years but I'm now under contract on a new house and will soon have a place to put them again.

I'm going to be upgrading my tweeters to the gemini's, and then working on OB bass to replace to two boxes. If you have any suggestions on how to go about that I'd appreciate it...

Gary

[kyrill]

I have some more experience with the B 200 now and I am content. They sound very very wonderful.

1) i have lacquered them with C 37 (a bigger improvement than changing powerchords, IC, or tubes) it is directly under the impact of having a stock power supply or a Boulder one for the SB3 or Duet.
2) If dried for over a month it will let you hear the differences of damping feet under the amps in a not subtle way. I use 2 Jadis tube amps and i had Herbies Isocup under them http://herbiesaudiolab.home.att.net/compfeet.htm but i still had 9 (expensive 390 dollars a piece in 1992) black Japanese feet which HP from the Absolute Sound loved so much.  ( forgot and cannot see a brand name, only numbers) In an A/B comparison i found the Isocup a bit more musical. But now i used a wooden plank with on top the Isocups and underneath the Japs. And i was floored. Now i heard details and separation of layers i have never have heard before in my 30+ years of finding the Holy grail. Before this experiment i was already happy enough with the B200 not to pursue for other speakers. They had big depth, details and musicality when tamed by the DEQX. But with the double damping mod* they let you hear so much more. Granted, the double damping will work with other speakers as well but in any way the B200 will let you hear the wonderful tone.

*Double damping with Isocup did not have the same effect at all. The Japs if i remember well dont actually damp but "push" the different freqs more into a same one but with a higher amplitude. The idea was that tuning to one freq, and damping that one, is much easier than damping a whole spectrum. 


preamp

[Mr Content]

Good on you kyrill for pushing the boundaries again. Tell me what is C 37?

Mr C

[Telstar]

Good on you kyrill for pushing the boundaries again. Tell me what is C 37?

Mr C

A very expensive violin lacquer:
http://www.ennemoser.com/th8.html

[Mr Content]

Thanks Telstar Have to see if I can get some, or similar, and give it a go

Mr C aa

[-Richard-]

Hi Kyrill ~

I did a little bit of research and it seems that the product you are recommending, the C37® LACK Formula TH8.4 multivokal, is indeed used by some of the most sophisticated speaker designers out there. For interested AC members, here is a link to the sight:    http://www.ennemoser.com/th8.html

Are you aware of a U.S. source / retailer we can purchasing it from?

Since I am still using the B200's and love them in my system (synergy being the integrative factor in all OB systems) my intuition feels that an application of the C37 might just deliver the musical magic with perhaps even more articulation than the "original" uncoated paper drivers... and it should add an aesthetic touch as well.

Also: is there an application method... technique... procedure... that you feel is necessary in order to get the most effective results?

Thanks Kyrill. I am deeply grateful for any information you can share with us.

Also... it would be very interesting to see your baffle... do you have any pictures you can share with us?

With Warmest Regards ~ Richard

[xyr]

On the Diyaudio forum people have demistified the basic ingredients from the C37 "formula" and they are all easy to source and very cheap. No one has to pay this outrages "audiophile" prices anymore. It would be wise to find that thread...

[Mr Content]

Have a look here

http://www.instrumentmaking.keithhillharpsichords.com/hillviolinvarnish.html

Mr C aa

[kyrill]

On the Diyaudio forum people have demistified the basic ingredients from the C37 "formula" and they are all easy to source and very cheap. No one has to pay this outrages "audiophile" prices anymore. It would be wise to find that thread...

I found the thread  and it really confirmed my "love" for C37. All nay sayers and C37 bashers never had listened to it because of the "exorbitant" price, so that is common. Also here in Audiocircles threads ppl can go on for many pages bashing a product because the price makes no sense, but they never seen or heard the product.==========================================================

a few quotes from the thread:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"After SY did his analysis of the C37 he sent me the remainder of the bottle to try out on speakers. We treated a number of paper cone speakers,

We found that the results varied depending on the paper we treated. Puzzlekoat (PVA) was used as an alternate coating for comparison.

Both C37 & PK mostly did the same sort of thing -- lowered the noise floor of the driver. The theory i had developed some time ago wrt PK is that the binding of the surface fibres is the primary mode of this improvement.

Which worked better depended on the cone, and seemed to be dependent on how easily the C37 went on to the cone material... on some cones (ie CSS FR125) the C37 easily flowed and spread on to the cone almost as if it was trying to spread itself, on some cones (ie Fostex banana paper) it was a real struggle to get the C37 to spread.

The FR125 was dramatically improved with the addition of 2 vanishingly thin coats of C37, the same driver with PK exhibited not quite as much improvement. A practical consideration also gave the edge to the C37. It was far to easy to accidentily get PK into the voice coil gap effectively gluing the voice coil to the phase plug.

The Fostex was another story. Overall the C37 improved the FE127, but attenuated the highs somewhat. PK on the other hand achieved the same result without as much HF attenuation, The C37 did give the Fostex cones a lovely parchment-like colour.

A number of other drivers exibited similar improvement.

A comment on the price of C37 is warranted here, Althou something like $150 per oz (vrs <$10 for 8 oz of PK), in the end the amount used on a speaker cone is very small. Using the FR125 as an example, i would estimate that one could close in on doing 100 drivers with your minimum 1 oz purchase."  http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1348617#post1348617
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"if it works, why not!" and I would agree with you.

Finding the "right" combination of ingredients for the substance used as violin varnish has been a quest for over 400 years, similar to finding the "right" way to tune keyboard instruments. There are an infinite amount of combinations, especially since the varnish AND the wood changes over time and use. Interestingly, according to scientific research part of the challenge that violin makers face is KEEPING the varnish from entering the pores of the wood which would dampen its natural resonating properties. In this sense the application of varnish is quite different from "painting". Since a speaker cone is somewhat of a "primitive" version of a resonating instrument body I find the application of these techniques to "new" technologies interesting, but I find the attempt from this experiment to construct a "universal theory" of resonance relating to the human body a bit, err, suspect. I have ordered some violin varnish from a luthier ($ 8/ 2ounces) and we will see if it "improves" the situation. Thanks for the tip!  http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1348617#post1348617
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HI

C37 Is all except subliminal...

I`ve used dammar, white glue, dope, violin varnish (belhen and a cheap one on ebay) and finaly C37.

C37 is more effective than previous one.

I have compared C37 vs belhen and the ebay varnish; Texture and smell is very different. time to cure is very different too. I applied one coat on a paper and I can ply c37 more than other before it break...

My lowther DX4 sound so better now. If I have the chance to go back and even if C37 would cost double the actual price, I will do it again

Even if lowther of america don`t recomment this treatment, It`s just so better that "stock cone"


Just my opinion.    http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=450818#post450818


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FORMULA C37 similar volin vanish was made by extract of Shellac (Lakeh), Resin, frankincense, Commiphora Myrrha ,Myrrha, Olibanum Plant base) etc Natural extract, pre-heat to Estimate temperature to form UP! This Natural Extract will seperate alcoholic base or Oil base. Most Volin was use Oil base but need longer time to dry up. Alcoholic base will offer U easy to increase or decrease( use alcoholic to be a Solvent ) to remove excess paint. So I choose Alcoholic Base & half Oil + Alcoholic base back to test & coating into solid wood horn & compare the sound performace about them.( with or Without C37 similar violin vanish piant.)
Also "this" ( "" added by me as it is NOT C37) C37 for user that he can paint by themselves. ( standard was 5 layers).http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1327468#post1327468

I included this post as even when it was C37 it does not name the exact portions of the ingredients relative to each other. So it is actually close to impossible with the right ingredients to copy the C37 lacquer---------------------------------------------------------------

There is  a but, Only 2% of the people notice the flickering of a 60hz tv set it means 90 % surely does not see it. I maybe with hearing as well ( very probably) subtle improvement or big ones in subtle areas like 3Dimensionality or space or focus and all the things mp3 let not hear you. may be beyond most ppl hearing experiences. C37 effect will fall in this "beyond" category. the flickering of 85hz ( !) crt monitor didn bother me but was easily see-able. 70 hz and lower gave me a headache. My own sons (!) 18-19 yrs old cannot hear the second female singer buried in the first voice but hear her  a sentence later barely ,
I find the C37 effect close to dramatic in the positive sense