REW is so depressing!

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Desertpilot

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REW is so depressing!
« on: 9 Jan 2022, 02:40 pm »
Here I am, for months, telling everyone how great my X3s sound (to me).  Finally, I dragged out my UMIK 1 and fired up REW.  Inside I was fearful of the results.  And, of course, the results were horrible.  Now, in my defense, I tried to play REW through my music server to my DAC (DAC is connected via USB).  REW would not work with the DAC's ASIO driver.  So, I switched to JAVA.  Left speaker, right speaker and both L+R.  All traces were almost identical showing a 25 dB peak at 40 Hz.  10 to 15 dB peaks at 60 and 80 Hz.  The speakers combined smoothed out the rest to within 10 dB.  Waterfall was miserable.  25 to 80 Hz was the worst.  But, there were additional frequencies in trouble as well.  I got room treatments.  I'm stuck with seating location.  All I can do is move speakers closer to front wall (which I don't want to do).

I'm going to try again tomorrow but run REW through my preamp so I can use ASIO4ALL and test all my speakers.  If my speakers fail again tomorrow, I'm likely to go the DSP route (Audiolense XO).

Arghhhhh.

Marcus

abomwell

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #1 on: 9 Jan 2022, 02:59 pm »
Marcus, your results are not uncommon. Domestic rooms have their way with bass. Using the EQ functions to lop off those peaks below 300Hz is an easy and effective solution. Other ideas that can help are non symmetrical speaker placement, using many more bass traps, and multiple (3-4) randomly positioned subwoofers. EQ is free with Roon and works well. Also toe-in angle changes things a lot too.

mrhyfy

Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #2 on: 9 Jan 2022, 03:04 pm »
I always wonder why there is so much (not everyone) opposition to dsp room correction in the audio industry. Is it because it can make mid-fi systems sound so good that it cuts into expensive hi-fi?

abomwell

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #3 on: 9 Jan 2022, 03:13 pm »
I always wonder why there is so much (not everyone) opposition to dsp room correction in the audio industry. Is it because it can make mid-fi systems sound so good that it cuts into expensive hi-fi?

Some very expensive and great sounding audio systems use DSP for room correction and bass. The Steinway-Lyngdorf and Sanders Sound systems are two examples.

Desertpilot

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #4 on: 9 Jan 2022, 03:21 pm »
Thanks for your quick input.  I feel better.  I'm playing solo piano music right now to sooth my soul (LOL).  We'll see tomorrow if the results are similar using an ASIO driver.  As an aside, ever since I got these speakers, I've loved how a double bass sounds. 

doggie

Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #5 on: 9 Jan 2022, 03:38 pm »
Here I am, for months, telling everyone how great my X3s sound (to me).

On the bright side you were happy with the sound ...until you did measurements.

You might have to settle for happy!  :icon_lol:

Early B.

Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #6 on: 9 Jan 2022, 03:41 pm »
It's like this -- your car is running fine, but if you take it to a mechanic, he's gonna find something to fix. I don't measure 'cause I don't want to know. Not much you can do anyways and room treatment isn't an option for everyone.

radarnyc

Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #7 on: 9 Jan 2022, 03:52 pm »
Marcus - can you post an image or two of your graphs?

I had the X3s and for a few reasons I switched to X5s. I have not measured my X5s yet, but here is a graph of one of my X3s. My lower end drops off and I'm wondering if yours does too.



Desertpilot

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #8 on: 9 Jan 2022, 04:11 pm »
Marcus - can you post an image or two of your graphs?

Sure.  Maybe I am reading it wrong.  By the way, Last week, I ran Audyssey XT32 through my Marantz AV8805 preamp.  I use my X3s as part of my home theater setup.  Audyssey showed similar results although it applied filters to flatten everything.

REW: 1/12 smoothing.  Edit:  You could say I have one helluva "house" curve from 100 Hz down to 40 Hz.








Desertpilot

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #9 on: 9 Jan 2022, 04:13 pm »
On the bright side you were happy with the sound ...until you did measurements.

You might have to settle for happy!  :icon_lol:

Doggie.  This made me chuckle.  Thank you!

Desertpilot

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #10 on: 9 Jan 2022, 04:14 pm »
It's like this -- your car is running fine, but if you take it to a mechanic, he's gonna find something to fix. I don't measure 'cause I don't want to know. Not much you can do anyways and room treatment isn't an option for everyone.

True.  I love the sound so I should be content.

Tangram

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #11 on: 9 Jan 2022, 04:23 pm »
I am a fan of REW. It’s humbling. It also shows the limits of acoustic treatments. Often, with troublesome bass, we are stuck with making slight improvements, not elimination of the problem.

Before you ran REW, did you have a hunch about that 40 Hz peak? 25 db would be very audible. I strongly suspect this is the resonant frequency of the room. There is only so much you can do to improve this without DSP.

The peak is so strong that you should try changing your speaker placement and/or listening position before tackling the problem with DSP. I was grappling with a 50 Hz peak. All I focused on was bass guitar! Moving my speakers 12” CLOSER to the front wall, such that they are now 48” away, solved the problem for me. Listening position is unchanged. I am quite certain I had them sitting in a bass node.

Now, did I shoot the room before and after? No. I guarantee I will still see plots that say the room sounds worse than it does.

Good luck.

Rusty Jefferson

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #12 on: 9 Jan 2022, 04:45 pm »
Why don't you try taking a measurement with the built in subwoofers turned off?  Then, take one with the subs on but turned down from their current settings. It's unusual that both channels would track so consistently. You might just have the subs up too high, which is not uncommon.

Bingenito

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #13 on: 9 Jan 2022, 04:47 pm »
If your listening position is fixed and you dont want to move the speaker distance dedicated passive treatments or active dsp would be the only viable solution if you choose to address it.

For giggles I would shoot measurements from different distances and see if you could theoretically normalize it. Not that you would move anything but it is just interesting if you shoot and see if positioning could fix it or not. I do this with my AVM 70 in my HT room as I had a massive suck out from my front speakers at 180hz so I shot several measurements to sort out placement. Then decided if I was willing to live with it as aesthetically.

Tangram

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #14 on: 9 Jan 2022, 04:53 pm »
Why don't you try taking a measurement with the built in subwoofers turned off?  Then, take one with the subs on but turned down from their current settings. It's unusual that both channels would track so consistently. You might just have the subs up too high, which is not uncommon.

Great idea.

77SunsetStrip

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #15 on: 9 Jan 2022, 04:53 pm »
Desertpilot, I feel your pain.  Any treatment in my room is limited by several factors.  Hoped REW would held identify the worst problems and then hoped would be possible to apply treatment.  Measured, measured, measured with REW.  Moved speakers, angled speakers, added diffusion, added absorption, EQ'd per REW analysis, set speakers on vibration dampers, added spikes.  Finally arrived at listening position pretty smooth FR according to REW. 

After months of fiddling, had to have achieved audio nirvana? For a while believed there was no room for improvement, so the sound quality had to be great. The more I listened, the less I liked.  Could not totally get rid of a 50 HZ boom, had to just be room mode.  Definitely more detail, but Midrange and Highs tended to be harsh and edgy.  After weeks of trying to convince myself good measurements had to mean good sound, started tweaking based on ears only.  After a couple hours of EQ adjustment, attenuating from 2.5K up and DSP adjustment to the subs everything sounded much better.  No loss of detail and in particular vocals much smoother with no screechiness.  Solid, clean, articulate bass.

Will eventually measure with REW, but no desire to immediately know what I did.  REW likely helped along the way to identify big problems.  However, it also proved my ears do not like a flat frequency response.
 

dpatters

Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #16 on: 9 Jan 2022, 05:11 pm »
If you love your sound, then why bother measuring?

Don P.

mick wolfe

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #17 on: 9 Jan 2022, 05:16 pm »
If you love your sound, then why bother measuring?

Don P.

 :thumb: Exactly what I was thinking.

Desertpilot

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #18 on: 9 Jan 2022, 05:17 pm »
... Moving my speakers 12” CLOSER to the front wall, such that they are now 48” away, solved the problem for me.
Good luck.

My wife would love you if I moved the speakers closer to the front wall.

Desertpilot

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #19 on: 9 Jan 2022, 05:24 pm »
If you love your sound, then why bother measuring?

Don P.

This is what I am thinking is the ultimate solution.  I really like the sound right now (and I've tried a million speaker positions).  Curious that I do not hear any problems with the bass.  I listen to classical and jazz.  Typically, bass comes from low piano notes and double bass instruments.  They sound fine to me.  Go figure.