Wanted a Turntable for Christmas, ended up with a headache.......

TKonrad.NOLA · « **Reply #80 on:** 31 Dec 2015, 04:22 am »

Quote from: mgsboedmisodpc2 on 30 Dec 2015, 09:22 pm

DigitalDude wrote
"I am new to turntables and I want to set it and forget it. I don't want to fiddle with anything."

Turntables need a well isolated platform to sit on to perform their best. Do you plan to wall mount your chosen turntable?

Yes!

GentleBender · « **Reply #81 on:** 31 Dec 2015, 11:58 am »

I started down the vinyl path before I found this forum. Bought a cheap Audio Technica LP-120USB to get started to see if it was for me. Spent the extra money on a Shure M97xe cartridge and some records. That setup kept me happy for two years before I began upgrading components. That gave me time to buy some records since I had none to start with other than a few 45RPM singles.

To be honest, I knew nothing about correct setup other than VTF. It wasn't until later I discovered that for optimum playback correct alignment is needed, but a little research on Vinylengine pointed me in the right direction. Choose something simple you will play and go from there. When I upgraded to a VPI, I just sold the Audio Technica and used the money to upgrade my cartridge.

gene9p · « **Reply #82 on:** 31 Dec 2015, 02:27 pm »

got a great deal on a new VPI Classic 2.Watched the set up videos till I had it memorized. Put it together in no time. Getting the arm balanced with a Rega Elys cartridge from my Rega table. Well, let's just say hours later I still cannot get it to play right or get the correct tracking force on the supplied Shure digital gauge. I did everything possible but it just maybe the Rega cartridge, a temp set up, won't work here. It also seems the supplied counterweight is way too light. The video shows them using a VPI 140 counterweight.So I used my Rega tungston which then allowed me to get the correct VTF but the lps all sounded harsh and scratchy until I dropped the VTF from 185 down to 90. any help or advise would be welcomed. If you are familiar with the VPI prime setup video on VPI's site, I did everything in it over and over to no good results.Lots of detail but it sounds all out of whack, something that is easily correct on Rega's with their dial in settings . Oh and boy is that arm bouncy and loose compared to other tables.

bacobits1 · « **Reply #83 on:** 31 Dec 2015, 03:08 pm »

gene nice table!
A Uni-pivot tone arm is completely different than the Rega arms, yup a little bouncy fussier to set up.
First of all take off the Rega weight it's totally incompatible for that arm (wow!) and I'm surprised it even fit.
Start over with the VPI correct weight. VPI has other weights but I doubt you need it for that Cart.
Typical for Rega I can't find the weight on that cart but I doubt you need a larger/heavier weight. What are you using to determine the VTF?
Main thing is start over on set up. Could be a cart problem doubtful again since you just removed it from the working Rega table.
The point bearing on the VPI Unpivot might be damaged. Lift off the arm wand and look at the point it rests on.
Beyond that, change cart, or have someone look at it for help.

sunnydaze · « **Reply #84 on:** 31 Dec 2015, 03:52 pm »

As a temporary fix to make CW heavier, goto golf dept of sporting goods store and buy some lead tape. Wrap it around CW.

Lose the Shure gauge!! Goto EBay, search on digital jewelers scale, and buy one there. Less than 15 bux! That's where I got mine, been using it for years, works great. Super accurate to .01 g. If concerned about flimsy quality and accuracy, buy one with a calibration weight and have peace of mind.

They typically have a metal tray, so cartridge magnet will attract. No good! To negate the magnetic pull, I put a small half inch thick piece of foam rubber on mine (cut 2 x 2 inch piece off a rubberized gym floor square), and then tare it to zero. For best accuracy, you want to weigh stylus tip at record surface. These scales have a bit of height, so you can't place it on the platter. Remove record platter and prop the scale up on something (cd cases, playing cards, hockey pucks, blocks of wood......anything) to get it to the exact height of a record. I position the scale about halfway across the record. Lower stylus, measure and adjust VTF. Easy Peezy, very fast and accurate. No more Shure see-saw BS.

Have fun. There's no way you should be hearing what you are on that setup. Defective / damaged cartridge? Maybe suspension or stylus got damaged when you moved it over to VPI? If not that, I don't believe VTA or VTF is the culprit, so long as in the ballpark. I would focus on null points = overhang and offset angle.

Wayner · « **Reply #85 on:** 31 Dec 2015, 04:37 pm »

Most digital scales are made from 300 series stainless steel, which is non-magnetic, or aluminum, which is also non-magnetic. My cheapie Dealextreme scale is non-magnetic.

http://www.dx.com/p/digital-precision-scale-with-leather-case-5g-max-0-01g-resolution-16269#.VoVZt09MGCm

'ner

sunnydaze · « **Reply #86 on:** 31 Dec 2015, 04:47 pm »

Can't comment with authority on "most". They are so cheap my guess is they'd be made with cheaper materials, which tend to be magnetic. Easy enough to check with a magnet. Mine attracts.

This is the one I have (mine also came with a calibration weight):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/0-01g-500g-Gram-Mini-Digital-LCD-Balance-Weight-Pocket-Jewelry-Diamond-Scale-/361322454393?hash=item54207f1d79:g:4fMAAOSwMmBV47c-

I doubt there are any sufficiently thin, so I think it's probably still best to remove the platter and prop the scale up to record height.

bacobits1 · « **Reply #87 on:** 31 Dec 2015, 05:04 pm »

That's similar to the one I have but is non magnetic and yes i use a step down platform to make it the height of the vinyl. It's accurate and repeatable across the platter.

Now, I would never on a $3k table glue, stick, bluetac anything on a counterweight to compensate for a table that should work within the limits of that Cart. Nothing unusual there.

Damn, we got too much time on our hands.

sunnydaze · « **Reply #88 on:** 31 Dec 2015, 06:07 pm »

Correct......

I suggested the lead tape as a temporary measure, just to get up and running cheaply and quickly, and see if the heavier CW balances the cart better. If it does, buy the heavier CW, remove the tape from the other. It does no damage, the CW will be returned to its original state as if the tape was never attached. No harm, no foul.

gene9p · « **Reply #89 on:** 31 Dec 2015, 07:47 pm »

for some reason I need to put the VPI supplied CW all the way forward just keep arm from swinging out and to make contact with lp. One would think the supplied CW would work.Sounds very scratchy. I tried raising and lowering the arm according to video but it sounds best at lowest position and that unfortunately has stylus making contact even with arm lift up. That's a big platter! The Shure supplied gauge gave a perfect 175 reading with cartridge on rega table. I have a similar bottom heavy CW from direct groove that can fit but when I get right reading..185 recommended...man it sounds awful, scratchy, and lots of distortion. I even tried adjust VTA on the fly without any positive results. Could be fault of the cartridge too which I believe is for rega tables only but...for now till after holiday I will try some the suggestions here. I do have plenty of lead tape too.

Happy new year everyone..I will keep you updated...thanks

sunnydaze · « **Reply #90 on:** 31 Dec 2015, 09:11 pm »

I misunderstood initially.......

Since your VTF is too light when CW is fully forward (ie, close to arm pivot), you need a lighter CW not a heavier one! Think of the tonearm as a see-saw. When you put weight on the far side of the pivot, you are reducing weight on the headshell end. When your CW is fully forward (ie close to pivot) VTF for a particular cart is at maximum. As you move CW away from pivot, VTF is reduced.

Again, as a temporary measure, you need to make the headshell end heavier. Very easy if you have a fixed or gimbal bearing arm. I would just put some blue tak blobs right on top of the headshell. But with a unipivot, unless you can center them perfectly (unlikely) this will tilt azimuth to one side.

You can try a weighted shim between headshell and cartridge. Some mfrs include them with their carts, I believe Clearaudio does. They look like this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/301315548494?ul_noapp=true&chn=ps&lpid=82

Maybe look around the house for something. Just make sure it is symmetrical and balanced so azimuth is not effected. Of course, you would now need to raise arm rear a bit since the shim makes the front of arm higher.

You could also add weight to the top of the headshell. Maybe some extra washers under screwheads, or extra nuts if the threads are long enough. No need to adjust VTA if you do this. The idea is to simply get the cartridge end heavier. Just make sure whatever material you use is balanced so azimuth is unaffected.

Scratchy? Beyond me why you are hearing that. There have been times when I've swapped carts and forgotten to reset VTF, such that it was grossly off, and I have never heard what you describe. I suspect something broken, or just really bad null point setup. You've not mentioned how (or if??) you've setup offset angle and overhang. Have you checked for good connection, headshell leads to cart pins?

I tried raising and lowering the arm according to video but it sounds best at lowest position and that unfortunately has stylus making contact even with arm lift up.

making contact with what? I'm guessing stylus is not lifting off the record? Easy fix -- there should be a small adjustment screw somewhere on the arm cue assembly. This will allow you to raise / lower the entire cueing assembly independent of the arm itself. For starters set your arm height (VTA) so arm is perfectly parallel to record surface when stylus is in groove. Gently lean lined index card against arm, get low and eyeball it, very easy to see. Make sure there is a gap between arm lift and arm underside. Now adjust your arm cue assembly so it properly lifts and lowers arm, with clearance under arm when its down.

From this point, you can adjust VTA by ear. Go slightly above and below the parallel position and just listen for results. Chances are, you will end up right around parallel. It probably won't be necessary, but adjust the cue assembly as described above if you are having arm clearance or lifting issues.

sunnydaze · « **Reply #91 on:** 31 Dec 2015, 09:45 pm »

Actually, I just had a thought......

Since you already have it, maybe slap a piece of lead tape right across the top of the headshell? It should be balanced well enough to maintain azimuth. Quick and easy. Get your VTF situation under control, then move onto other parameters. Too many unknowns at the moment to properly diagnose.

gene9p · « **Reply #92 on:** 1 Jan 2016, 04:49 pm »

going to give the lead tape on the shell a shot later. Heard back from the dealer..the rega cartridge is the issue. They suggested the EZ screws for more head shell weight and of course want to discuss different cartridges. Told them I will speak to them Monday when I was home . I also have an Ortofon 2m Red coming that I purchased locally as a test cartridge until I have everything under control and make a move to a more costly one.

bacobits1 · « **Reply #93 on:** 1 Jan 2016, 05:07 pm »

Probably the cart mass total is only like 4 grams (it's not listed anywhere) and you can't balance properly if all the way forward to the pivot area. You need a lighter weight.

The easy screws are an alternative ($40?) but I hate the way they look.

The 3rd screw on a Rega setup arm might add a gram too to the total weight. I have an Ortofon X5MC that is around 4 grams mass and I had to use the lighter Michele Techno weight to balance correctly on my P5 when I had it.
Good move getting away from the Rega Cart anyway.

Let us know how you make out when the Red arrives.

gene9p · « **Reply #94 on:** 1 Jan 2016, 05:36 pm »

will do..

thanks to everyone...

Guy 13 · « **Reply #95 on:** 1 Jan 2016, 05:43 pm »

Quote from: bacobits1 on 1 Jan 2016, 05:07 pm

Probably the cart mass total is only like 4 grams (it's not listed anywhere) and you can't balance properly if all the way forward to the pivot area. You need a lighter weight.

The easy screws are an alternative ($40?) but I hate the way they look.

The 3rd screw on a Rega setup arm might add a gram too to the total weight. I have an Ortofon X5MC that is around 4 grams mass and I had to use the lighter Michele Techno weight to balance correctly on my P5 when I had it.
Good move getting away from the Rega Cart anyway.

Let us know how you make out when the Red arrives.

Hi bacobits1,
sorry to barge in like that,
just want to say that for me the
Rega P3 with RB301 and the Exact mm cartridge
with that third screw you mentionned
is one less adjustment for me to worry about.
A good idea from Rega, if you buy their cartridge of course,
a good marketing strategy.
Sorry, I will now get off your hair.

Guy 13

werd · « **Reply #96 on:** 1 Jan 2016, 06:37 pm »

if you are looking for weights maybe these? They insert into gaming mouses for custom weight feel for the mouse. They come in 1.7 and 4.5 gram weights. Have no idea if they would work on a cart or tonearm but they are small enough and come in a pre measured weight

I have tons of these around from the Razer gaming mouses i have bought in the past.

gene9p · « **Reply #97 on:** 1 Jan 2016, 09:36 pm »

Quote from: Guy 13 on 1 Jan 2016, 05:43 pm

Hi bacobits1,
sorry to barge in like that,
just want to say that for me the
Rega P3 with RB301 and the Exact mm cartridge
with that third screw you mentionned
is one less adjustment for me to worry about.
A good idea from Rega, if you buy their cartridge of course,
a good marketing strategy.
Sorry, I will now get off your hair.

yes..installing an Exact or the Elys 2 is a breeze on my rega p3-24 with the original 301 arm and the 303 I replaced it with.

Guy 13

gene9p · « **Reply #98 on:** 1 Jan 2016, 09:42 pm »

Quote from: werd on 1 Jan 2016, 06:37 pm

if you are looking for weights maybe these? They insert into gaming mouses for custom weight feel for the mouse. They come in 1.7 and 4.5 gram weights. Have no idea if they would work on a cart or tonearm but they are small enough and come in a pre measured weight

I have tons of these around from the Razer gaming mouses i have bought in the past.

I have those too...what a koool idea!..a little blue tac to hold it in place.....still sounds awful at correct VTF on scale but a little old fashioned up and down and changing settings until it sounds good will do for now untill the Red arrives.

sunnydaze · « **Reply #99 on:** 1 Jan 2016, 10:14 pm »

I strongly suspect you won't be able to balance them on headshell without skewing azimuth. Unipivots wobble easily.

Your best bet is to somehow locate exact headshell midpoint (side to side, front to back not important), and placing weight there, if possible. If two are used balancing will be easier, place one at each edge.

PS: good luck keeping it in place. Maybe a lil bit of blu tak.