Wanted a Turntable for Christmas, ended up with a headache.......

Wayner · « **Reply #60 on:** 28 Dec 2015, 08:42 pm »

Sunnydaze hits the nail on the head. Tables aren't CD players, not much to tweak here other then an external DAC or fiddle with cable options. Tables are electro-mechanical devices that have many adjustments that can bring the listener closer or further away from the groove content. Those kinds of adjustments have all been explained or mentioned many times before, so I'll spare the thread.

The reality is that 2 people can have the identical turntable, cartridge, phono preamp...etc and have completely different sound results. Attention to geometry and physics helps out lots, too. If you never hear a properly set up table with a revealing system, as good as vinyl may be (for you), you still may not have a clue what you are missing from the information in the grooves. The information in the grooves is beyond belief. The best attempts at recovery require knowledge and dedication to achieve a table that is aligned a best as humanly possible. That should be the ultimate goal for most vinyl heads.

The moral of this story is that it is possible for a meager table set up correctly to outperform a far more expensive table set up poorly. This is where skill set comes into play.

And Gandy can think what ever he wants.......

Wayner

Wayner · « **Reply #61 on:** 28 Dec 2015, 09:03 pm »

And, Mr. Gandy is not stupid. But, he knew many of his customers might be so his entire turntable is pre-programmed. Buy his table and his cartridge (remember that Rega cartridges have 3 mounting holes) and you have instant cartridge alignment, overhang, offset angle, and preset VTA because of the non-adjustable tonearm height. It's pretty much been turned into a CD player. Add a Rega phono preamp and speed box and Mr. Gandy has you right where you need to be. No other manufacturer has, that I know of (as far as tables go), ever designed such a product grouping so well and so integrated thru, as the entire Rega line up of tables, not even Technics.

And to that, I do believe that Mr. Gandy believes that "the simple minded believe that everything is simple" theory....and maybe its not just a theory.

Wayner

jsaliga · « **Reply #62 on:** 28 Dec 2015, 09:19 pm »

A dealer is exactly for people who don't want to get inundated with the technical aspects of a vinyl setup.

Part of the charm of vinyl is that you can learn as you go along and get into it as deep as your finances and interest allow. Lots people shit all over Regas and no one is going to change their mind that Rega tables and arms are lousy. Despite that they generally get good reviews and people who buy them are happy with their purchase. I think they are a viable choice for people who would prefer simplicity and convenience. If you are using a Rega cartridge, you don't need to adjust VTA because the cartridge is matched to the arm height by design. If you want to branch out to other cartridges then you may need to check. But not too many people I know buy their first turntable and a truckload of cartridges to get started. The Rega RP6 and Exact2 is a very decent set up to start with. When you outgrow the Rega, if you do, then you can move on to another table and arm that provides more flexibility and options. Not everyone who gets into vinyl ends up with 12 turntables and 42 cartridges.

Some never move beyond their first table.

If you buy from a dealer the cartridge will be mounted for you by the dealer. All you will need to do is place the table on suitable surface, make the connection to the phono preamp, check the tracking force (and antiskate if your arm has it), and then spin a record and enjoy.

The other nice thing about buying a turntable from a dealer is you can go audition them and see/hear them for yourself.

One thing I would not do if buying my first turntable is buy used from anyone other than a dealer who will stand behind the product after the sale. While I have bought some tables on eBay and Audiogon I knew what I was getting into and had considerable experience. If you are new to vinyl you might be taking a risk, and a bad first experience will probably push you away from what is for many people one of the most rewarding aspects of their audio experience.

--Jerome

TKonrad.NOLA · « **Reply #63 on:** 29 Dec 2015, 08:24 pm »

Quote from: eclubow on 28 Dec 2015, 06:19 pm

The OP said he was not into tinkering, so I doubt this option would have great appeal to him. That's why I suggested Rega in the first place. In all the years I've been listening, I've never adjusted VTA ( and please don't tell me what I'm missing).

This guy gets it. I don't want to tinker with shit. I want to put on a favorite and listen. I want the nicest and simplest setup for under $1500.

By the way, my amp is the Peachtree Audio Nova220SE and my speakers are Ascend Acoustics Sierra Tower with RAAL.

neobop · « **Reply #64 on:** 29 Dec 2015, 09:52 pm »

Quote from: DigitalDude on 29 Dec 2015, 08:24 pm

This guy gets it. I don't want to tinker with shit. I want to put on a favorite and listen. I want the nicest and simplest setup for under $1500.

Eclubow is in the minority. What if you get into it and want to change arm height? There's an entire cottage industry for Rega arm mods.

Quote from: sunnydaze on 28 Dec 2015, 08:04 pm

Even if you don't wanna '' tinker'' I still consider reasonably easy VTA adjustment an absolute must. You do wanna get the VTA right, correct? Just like all the other setup parameters.

Carts come in different heights, and for some stylus profiles nailing correct VTA is critical to good sound. It can be the difference between so-so and eargasm. So achieving a correct VTA is important. You don't need to be an OCD hand wringing tinkerer to wanna get VTA right during setup. An arm that offers VTA adjust is just another setup tool, no different than VTF and bias and null points. Having it available is not necessarily a gateway to extreme tinkering nervosa, or some rabbit hole that's gonna send you into an OCD tailspin.

Personally, I would never buy an arm without VTA adjustment. It's just too important, and without it you may never achieve the true glory your cart has to offer.

+1, except I am a tinkerer. I want it to sound as good as possible and that might require some tinkering. IMO set-and-forget only works for low res phono set-ups. Maybe you'll be like Eclubow, but I think the odds are against it. Depending on the arm, changing height is not a big deal, that is unless you don't have provision for it. What if you decide you want to try one of the more popular alignment and you can't do it?

There are other tables you could get. Maybe you should consider something else. Playing records is not a set-and-forget thing.
neo

mlundy57 · « **Reply #65 on:** 30 Dec 2015, 12:18 am »

I also am getting back into vinyl and bought myself a TT and phono preamp for Christmas. Total spent was $1,400

$1,000 for a Pro-Ject RPM3 Carbon with a Sumiko Blue Point No.2 MC cartridge (HO)

(mine's black) http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?prod=rpm3carbon&cat=turntables&lang=en

Plus $400 (normally $500) for a Pro-Ject Phono Box DS+

http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?prod=phonoboxdsplus&cat=boxes&lang=en

Pretty much plug and play and sounds great. Just had to set VTF and anti-skate. VTA is adjustable if needed but not on the fly. If that ends up being necessary I can add a $250 aftermarket mod later on but so far I have not had any issues, even after adding a leather mat.

Nice solid table, easy to set up, works well and sounds good. All for under $1,500.

Mike

eclubow · « **Reply #66 on:** 30 Dec 2015, 05:13 am »

Quote from: Wayner on 28 Dec 2015, 09:03 pm

And, Mr. Gandy is not stupid. But, he knew many of his customers might be so his entire turntable is pre-programmed.

Wayner

I see that tact reigns supreme on this site. Though I own a Rega, I really don't take offense at these remarks. I don't think they're meant as an insult. But perhaps some here should reread their sentences before posting just on the off chance that their comments might be misconstrued.

Johnny2Bad · « **Reply #67 on:** 30 Dec 2015, 06:38 am »

I've owned a lot of different turntables over the years, and a dozen very good cartridges to go along with them.

ERA with a Mayware Formula4

Thorens TD-125 MKII (best bass from a TT that I've owned, period. I can put on a cassette tape I made sometime during the late 70's / early 80's and tell, instantly, whether it was made from a record on that Thorens or some other turntable).

DENON DP-3000 (Denon arm and Fidelity Research FR1 MK II, later replaced with an Infinity Black Widow and ADC ZLM)

Marantz TT-15 (made by Clearaudio) Very good turntable, sold due to a need to liquidate for an urgent cash requirement. Wish I still owned it, but selling it solved a problem for me, and life goes on.

REGA p3 with DENON DL-103 (current setup)

I liked them all, for various reasons; all were not only good sounding but offered good value (bang for the buck).

Myself and a buddy used to manufacture a mount (rosewood veneer over baltic birch plywood) that allowed you to put a SME Series III Improved on a Technics SL-1200. In 1979.

For somewhere between $100 and $200 you can have very easily adjustable and very precise VTF in a REGA tonearm; generally you can adjust it "on the fly"; that is while a record is playing, to tune VTF by ear if you so desire, or by alignment tool if you prefer that method, or a combination of both.

That might sound expensive, but to me not so much since the REGA tonearms are priced extremely reasonably for the performance. The extra $200 doesn't adversely affect the value; it's still a bargain all told.
__________

Somewhat off topic, but related if you stretch it enough ... a note about tracking force. I almost always set the tracking force at the high end of the manufacturer's recommendation, and only change lower if I have found, via a test record, that the cartridge is capable of tracking the nastiest passages without mistracking ... which pretty much never happens.

People seem to think that every quarter gram of tracking force somehow wears out the grooves on an LP. Nothing could be further from the truth ... an album being played via a properly setup tonearm and cartridge is not damaged by a reasonable tracking force.

What does damage the grooves? Mistracking damages the grooves, and a single instance of mistracking will permanently damage that area of an LP. Don't tolerate mistracking, and especially don't invite mistracking by setting the Vertical Tracking Force on the light end of the recommended weight. Go for the heavy side of that recommended value, and minimize the rsik of mistracking right from the start.

__________

Wayner ... RE: REGA and their "integrated" philosophy of turntables ... I think B&O did it first. But Gandy, like all good artists, knows enough to steal from the best.

Johnny2Bad · « **Reply #68 on:** 30 Dec 2015, 07:22 am »

I swear every word is the truth:

At the local HiFi Emporium I used to frequent when first getting into audio, they had the usual selection of modern turntables on display, and sold them like Hot Cakes, just like everyone else did back in the day.

On the bottom of the rack in the main showroom, there sat what looked like something that was very, very much out of place. A plain, primitive appearing affair, with a clumsy looking and unusually heavy tonearm ... there sat the AR turntable.

When I asked about it, the owner of the shop set about doing his usual demo. He hooked up the most efficient speakers in the room ... Klipsch La Scalas ... you could stand in front of one and have your pants leg flap in time with the kick drum ... to the most powerful, at the time, amp he had in the room ... a Phase Linear 700 ... 350 watts per channel.

He would take a bass-heavy record, put it on the AR, set the cartridge's stylus in the groove, and replace the dust cover on the now playing album.

He would turn the volume knob up as loud as the customer could stand, and then reach around behind the rack and pull out ...

An Estwing Finishing Hammer, leather grips, with a 20 oz smooth face head. And then he would hand the hammer over, and invite the customer to hit the dust cover with the hammer while the record played.

The customer inevitably would fail at banging the dust cover with enough violence to suit the proprietor, so he would take the hammer from the customer who has, of course, noticed nary a skip occoured during his feeble attempts to create havoc ... and give that dust cover some serious whacks.

The album never skipped, even once, during the many times I witnessed this demo.

And that, my friends, is the value of a double isolated suspension system, as seen on many tables in the past. However it's worth pointing out that only the Technics tables ever came close to the AR when it came to the hammer test.

Wayner · « **Reply #69 on:** 30 Dec 2015, 12:48 pm »

Quote from: eclubow on 30 Dec 2015, 05:13 am

I see that tact reigns supreme on this site. Though I own a Rega, I really don't take offense at these remarks. I don't think they're meant as an insult. But perhaps some here should reread their sentences before posting just on the off chance that their comments might be misconstrued.

Sorry, I'm an engineer, not a writer. Sometimes the truth needs to be brought right out front for everyone to see, not beating around the bush.

Also, my statement doesn't mean that people that buy a Rega are stupid. I owned one and still own 1/2 of one (the RB-300 arm). Also, some people are great doctors and piss-poor at cartridge set up...........

sunnydaze · « **Reply #70 on:** 30 Dec 2015, 02:30 pm »

Quote from: Wayner on 30 Dec 2015, 12:48 pm

Sorry, I'm an engineer, not a writer. Sometimes the truth needs to be brought right out front for everyone to see, not beating around the bush.

Agreed!

Enough with the hyper sensitivity and offense taking already!

You want a PC bubble safety zone, goto a college campus and hang w the young fascist thought police that are shutting down every utterance / opposing point of view that offends their delicate sensibilities. Not a good way to be.

neobop · « **Reply #71 on:** 30 Dec 2015, 03:56 pm »

Quote from: eclubow on 30 Dec 2015, 05:13 am

I see that tact reigns supreme on this site. Though I own a Rega, I really don't take offense at these remarks. I don't think they're meant as an insult. But perhaps some here should reread their sentences before posting just on the off chance that their comments might be misconstrued.

My approach is 100% opposite of yours and I think it needs to be said. Not to say so would be a disservice to OP. If you're happy with your nonadjustable setup, that's fine, but many people eventually wonder why some records don't sound right. This is especially true with a varied collection containing many different labels of various vintage. Rather than chalk it up to lousy sounding LPs, I see how good they can sound.

I also don't favor the Rega factory alignment. Loefgren A (Baerwald) is the most popular, has the most even alignment error beginning to end, and most all aftermarket protractors are Loefgren A. Loefgren B has the lowest total error and is favored by many, but probably can't be achieved with a Rega arm with factory mounting distance. Both of these alignments require greater overhang (> pivot to stylus distance). You might be able to achieve one, but probably not the other.

Digital Dude,
I'm not sure what you expect with your plug-n-play approach, but records require some effort. I wonder if you're unknowingly setting this up to fail. A long time ago we had a thread by a guy with a good digital setup, who bought a nice record player. Not knowing the first thing about playing records, he complained that it sounds lousy. He didn't know that records and stylus had to be cleaned, the table setup on an appropriate platform, had to be level, etc. etc.

There are other tables in the price range including Music Hall, ProJect, Thorens, Pioneer and more, plus slightly used like Clearaudio/Marantz. For a successful experience, all of them require more than just putting a record on.
neo

I.Greyhound Fan · « **Reply #72 on:** 30 Dec 2015, 04:27 pm »

Digital Dude. Here is the Manual for the Clear Audio Concept. It is pretty much plug and play with the Concept Cartridge-

http://clearaudio.de/_assets/_pdf/manuals/turntables/CA_Concept_E+D.pdf

Here are some video's on setting up the CAC-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbCCSI_JyvQ

Here are some reviews-

http://www.audioappraisal.com/clearaudio-concept-review/

http://www.tonepublications.com/analogaholic/fantastic-value-from-clearaudio-2/

mlundy57 · « **Reply #73 on:** 30 Dec 2015, 04:43 pm »

Quote from: neobop on 30 Dec 2015, 03:56 pm

There are other tables in the price range including Music Hall, ProJect, Thorens, Pioneer and more, plus slightly used like Clearaudio/Marantz. For a successful experience, all of them require more than just putting a record on.
neo

True but that doesn't necessarily mean a person looking to experience vinyl needs to learn how to do all that setup and tweaking to get started. In my case I bought my RPM3 from one of two local Pro-Ject dealers. Both offered to setup and/or adjust my table for no charge. Even the one I didn't buy the table from.

Later on I can learn as much, or as little, as my interest in vinyl dictates. If my only choice was to get a TT/cart combo that required me to learn all the intricate setup details before I could listen to a record I would never have bothered. I gather from the OP's comments he and I are of the same mind at this point regarding vinyl.

When I was asking this question a few months back, all the well intentioned advice about needing a more expensive table than I could afford and needing to learn all these adjustments and methods served more to discourage than to encourage. Having a user friendly entry point into vinyl is essential for getting new people involved.

I'm perfectly happy with the choice I made. It was the right one for me at this time. Will I outgrow it? Possibly, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

Mike

Wayner · « **Reply #74 on:** 30 Dec 2015, 04:58 pm »

Mike, everyone has to start at the beginning and you are right on with your comment. I wonder about newbies that buy something used on eBay and have zero experience with a table, let alone seen one. That is not a good way to start. That is also why I made my comment about Rega. A great place to start with almost no set up knowledge required. Of course my "stupid" comment was more from the humor side of me, and I didn't mind that someone got a bit twisted on that. Next time, I'll be more careful (remind anyone of the Judge from Caddyshack).

basically, it took me 45 years +/- to get where I am at. Again, most tables are not plug and play and if you want that, they make CD players....

'ner

sunnydaze · « **Reply #75 on:** 30 Dec 2015, 05:22 pm »

It's really not as complicated as it may seem. Trust me. It's just the anxiety of the unknown. There are really only a handful of important setup parameters, and once the penny drops, the concept of what you are doing and trying to accomplish is completely logical and makes complete sense. It's not mysterious hoo-doo voo-doo. It's just distances, angles, and weight.

I'm self taught in setup, just from reading and talking to experience. I currently run 2 tables and 4 arms / carts. Set it all up myself, never had a helping hand, even as a beginner. And all sound great. I even make arc protractors for all my arms. I find them the quickest / easiest way to get perfect overhang / effective length, provided your mount distance is spot on. I'm neither an engineer nor a technical person.

Don't get lost in the minutiae. It's neither onerous nor overwhelming, and you don't need microscopic precision. Some folks just like to make it out that way.

dmckean · « **Reply #76 on:** 30 Dec 2015, 05:36 pm »

If you're going to get into vinyl, you need to know how to setup a turntable. I tried to avoid it with my first purchase 20 years ago, but after bringing the table back to the dealer three times, I bought a test record and protractor and did it myself. I learned a lot and never had to touch the setup again until I sold that table 7 years later.

Wayner · « **Reply #77 on:** 30 Dec 2015, 06:45 pm »

Quote from: sunnydaze on 30 Dec 2015, 05:22 pm

It's really not as complicated as it may seem. Trust me. It's just the anxiety of the unknown. There are really only a handful of important setup parameters, and once the penny drops, the concept of what you are doing and trying to accomplish is completely logical and makes complete sense. It's not mysterious hoo-doo voo-doo. It's just distances, angles, and weight.

I'm self taught in setup, just from reading and talking to experience. I currently run 2 tables and 4 arms / carts. Set it all up myself, never had a helping hand, even as a beginner. And all sound great. I even make arc protractors for all my arms. I find them the quickest / easiest way to get perfect overhang / effective length, provided your mount distance is spot on. I'm neither an engineer nor a technical person.

Don't get lost in the minutiae. It's neither onerous nor overwhelming, and you don't need microscopic precision. Some folks just like to make it out that way.

The real trick is knowing geometrical techniques to take your alignment from OK to right on. I'm pretty sure using the 2 point alignment system without some geometrical assistance will result in overhang errors, even tho the alignment may look spot on. Overhang and offset angle must be as close to exact as humanly possible. This is not an easy task. Repeated attempts will result in repeated differences unless error can be eliminated.

'ner

mgsboedmisodpc2 · « **Reply #78 on:** 30 Dec 2015, 09:22 pm »

DigitalDude wrote
"I am new to turntables and I want to set it and forget it. I don't want to fiddle with anything."

Turntables need a well isolated platform to sit on to perform their best. Do you plan to wall mount your chosen turntable?

eclubow · « **Reply #79 on:** 30 Dec 2015, 09:32 pm »

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IPrKWs3lE-E

To the original poster:

Here's an excellent video about the Rega RP6. I think he does a fine job of explaining the strengths of the table and the ease of operation. Certainly look at other videos for other makes also. Also go to a dealer and listen. There's so much info available. It's quite clear from the posts here that many of us have very differing views on this subject. I'm speaking from my own perspective, not trying to convince anyone, just trying to convey what has worked for me. Many here disagree and that's fine.

This discussion can go on ad nauseum with no resolution. I'm about done though. Much luck on your choice.