[Wayner]

Wayner is probably the best cat to answer that.  I'm still tryin to get optimal on my own.  Optimal sounding.

Yes, camera should be perpendicular to the cartridge and shot straight on.

Jay, your stylus looks funky. I'm not sure what is going on. If the cartridge is relatively new, it sure looks like you have to much SRA.

On another note to some comments made about SRA adjustments: Most arms simply do not have enough VTA adjustment to gain more then a degree or two. Remember the rule: 1° takes 4mm of rise. 4mm = .157"

My Technics only allows for 6mm of VTA adjustment, the Empire is more, but then the queing lever gets in the way......

Wayner

[jimdgoulding]

If anyone is interested I played "Dafos" last nite and, boy, the dynamic range surpasses anything I know of, but, musically, we're talking eggplant.

[BaMorin]

Wayner, your opinion, your research, is well regarded in these parts, you bet yer dang skippy.  So, for dummies like me, what BaMorin says about when the cartridge body is parallel to the phono record at rest, the stylus cut would then equate to 92 degrees tracking in use is incorrect.  If I misstated Ba, please clarify.  Thanks.  I'd still like to know where that illustration came from.  Is that something you created?  Thanks, again.

Were you able to open the links to DaveyW's web site?  If so, did you look at how the diamonds were cut on the 8MR, MCZ, Sonata-1? Did you compare the cuts to the standard elliptical cuts? If so, on the 3 mentioned styli, find the centerline of the diamond where it attaches to the cantilever and follow that line down to the very tip. You should find that the tracing face of those diamonds run offline of that center line. When the stylus itself is 90deg perpendicular to the vinyl, the tracing cut of the stylus will be at (or about) 92deg.

[trackball02]

neobop, I think you are totally correct about the limitations and distortion using a hand held camera and a wide angle lens. I seriously doubt that the pictures I posted is really accurate. I magnified with Photoshop and added some sharpening. Nevertheless, this is a good learning experience for me, and I really need to follow up with better imaging.

[jimdgoulding]

Were you able to open the links to DaveyW's web site?  If so, did you look at how the diamonds were cut on the 8MR, MCZ, Sonata-1? Did you compare the cuts to the standard elliptical cuts? If so, on the 3 mentioned styli, find the centerline of the diamond where it attaches to the cantilever and follow that line down to the very tip. You should find that the tracing face of those diamonds run offline of that center line. When the stylus itself is 90deg perpendicular to the vinyl, the tracing cut of the stylus will be at (or about) 92deg.

Yes, I could and I see.  You have the cartridge body level with the record surface and believe, thanks to the cut of the stylus, you are tracking at 92 degrees.  Wayner has the cart body tilted up in the rear and believes, I think, THAT is how we are supposed to accomplish a 92 degree tracking angle.  Am I nuts or aren't you fellows differing on this? 

[Quiet Earth]

Good question Jim.

[BaMorin]

I've tried to respond to this post 3 times.......my posts get bounced, adding this one to see if it makes it through the powers that be.

[TheChairGuy]

I've tried to respond to this post 3 times.......my posts get bounced, adding this one to see if it makes it through the powers that be.

It wasn't me....which only leaves a computer or operator glitch on your end or intervention of sitewide moderators. 

But, the sitewide mods don't usually patrol here as they know I'm active and reactive to things in this circle. They tend to stay on circles where moderation is lax or close to nonexistent.

{EDIT} there is nothing in Quarantine or Intergalactic Wastebin, so I think computer or user error the cause, Marc.

Cheers, John

[jimdgoulding]

What is in your picture, John?  Looks like a tin of something and some gold bars.

Please post, Ba.

[TheChairGuy]

What is in your picture, John?  Looks like a tin of something and some gold bars.

Please post, Ba.

Oooofa Jim...tin???!

Ag (silver) and Au (gold), babeeee! Real money for at least the past 5000 years of recorded history.

{EDIT - what's pictured, in particular, are wonderful 100oz bars - often referred to by bullion owners as STACKERS.  They're really quite handy (but very pricey) as door stoppers 'cause they weigh a very dense and concentrated ~8lbs each }

Now we're WAAAAY off topic....but, I use a Grado Gold1 (hehe, worked it back on to topic) with van Alstine outrigger, damped coils and a shibata stylus from a G1+ Grado and it's incredibly organic and pleasant sounding to me.

John

[jimdgoulding]

And here I thought it was sardines . 

[BaMorin]

Oooofa Jim...tin???!

Ag (silver) and Au (gold), babeeee! Real money for at least the past 5000 years of recorded history.

{EDIT - what's pictured, in particular, are wonderful 100oz bars - often referred to by bullion owners as STACKERS.  They're really quite handy (but very pricey) as door stoppers 'cause they weigh a very dense and concentrated ~8lbs each }

Now we're WAAAAY off topic....but, I use a Grado Gold1 (hehe, worked it back on to topic) with van Alstine outrigger, damped coils and a shibata stylus from a G1+ Grado and it's incredibly organic and pleasant sounding to me.

John

Re previous posts; must be me not knowing how to force the post to take......I keep getting warnings about others who posted, and then mine vanishes off someplace.

re G1 stylus.  Got one as well, and the Z2+ stylus. besides my various Signatures and Sonata-1. What I picked up recently was a NOS MTE+1. Yep bottom of the line cart. What I wanted was the (de) coupling plate it came with so I bid on it.......only one to do so, I got it dirt cheap. So I then decide to look at how cheap it was under my scope. I found it to have a nude mounted back cut diamond that looks exactly like my MCZ diamond. I then measured the coils. The typical info sheet from Grado says 800ohms per side. OOOPS, this one is 461 per side (both). Hmmmmmmmm  .  Years ago, one of the FTE+1 carts I bought ($13.00 in 1977) sounded just like my Signature 1BB. I never looked at it close as to why.  Marc thinkin ta hisself he thinks "old Joe mighta spiked the punch ever now and then" So I mount this puppy in a headshell and give it a spin on my XB.  Anybody ever bought a  63 Chevy Nova only to find the factory installed the 365hp 327 motor? WOWSER!!!  In my line up of  Grado carts from bottom to top.  Z2+,  G1+, MTE+1, Sig 8, Sig 8MZ, Sig8MZ body with MCZ stylus, MCZ/MCZ, Sonata-1.  This MTE+1 is pretty fun when one considers it was lunch money. Prolly not find another like it either 

[jimdgoulding]

Good question Jim.

After re-reading, it seems that Wayner's illustration was not for the Signature but for a Grado Gold.  And I think they have different styli.  So, maybe my question was not so good.  Don't know why that escaped me.  I wasn't smoking anything. 

Listening to Bruce Cockburn's In The Falling Dark (Island) and he and his guitar have never ever sounded better.

[andyr]

Anyway, it appears with magnificaton that my Signature Reference stylus is at a perfect right angle to the record groove.  Things are fuller, more saturated, even a bit larger.  Sections and individual images in both large and small works are layered and 3D.  I have regained that with real fine tuning along with superb ambience.  Tone is much truer to my senses.  I'm a happy muthajumper.  Thanks, everybody.  I would recommend experimenting as I have to anybody.  It's been worth it.

Hi Jim,

So you reckon the optimum for your Signature Reference is a 90 deg angle? 

I just checked my Reference Reference (which is the 4mV version of yours, so should be the same) and I currently have it just over vertical.  So I'll play around tonight with getting it back to 90 deg and see how I like it. 

Thanks,

Andy

[jimdgoulding]

Andy, shit I don't know if it's 90 degrees or 92 degrees or what with that stylus cut on the Sonata.  Grado won't tell me shit.  They don't want to make a statement which I think I understand.  How embarrassed am I to say that listening to more things, I'm so confounded I've switched to CD*.  You go ahead as a second opinion is welcome.  Bruce Cockburn was wonderful, then my operas started to bore me.  That cain't happen.

*You'd have to be in a coma or something for Mapleshade's Andy McKee and NEXT not to blow out your jams.  Sound Roots is the title and it's clean and dynamic as all get out.

[BaMorin]

Hi Jim,

So you reckon the optimum for your Signature Reference is a 90 deg angle? 

I just checked my Reference Reference (which is the 4mV version of yours, so should be the same) and I currently have it just over vertical.  So I'll play around tonight with getting it back to 90 deg and see how I like it. 

Thanks,

Andy

The Woody line should probably sound best running the body 90deg to the album. "Best" being totaly subjective of course. The moving of the prestige line up in the back as Wayne shows in his drawing is probably best for that stylus cut. Again "best" is the user end preference. General rule(s) with Grado carts is tail down for more bass, tail up for more treble. Grado carts to me seem more tune-able, as they respond to minute adjustments. In loading at the phono inputs, slight changes in tracking weight/bias weight, alignments.
On paper, droping the load down from 47K to 38K shouldn't affect the the sonics. It does. Capacitance still doesn't mean anything to Grado carts until you start pushing them above 800pf......hate to see how crappy those cables would have to be.

[orthobiz]

I have a feeling that the stylus mounting probably varies from cartridge to cartridge and that some companies are better at quality control than others. And that unless each cartridge is measured with a microscope one never really knows how one's cartridge was manufactured. Using one's ears is good, tail up tail down, whatever sounds best. But measurements probably matter, if at least to provide a starting point for micro adjustment.

For instance, in the Rega tonearm lineup, the more expensive arms are similar but they were hand picked for better tolerances. Maybe the same is true in cartridge manufacturing.

Paul

[andyr]

For instance, in the Rega tonearm lineup, the more expensive arms are similar but they were hand picked for better tolerances. Maybe the same is true in cartridge manufacturing.

Paul

My understanding is that this is true of the top 2 models in Grado's HO 'Reference' & LO 'Statement' lines.  The top models in each of these lines is the 'Reference' (or 'Reference1') hence my cartridge is the 4mV 'Reference Reference1'.  The top LO is the 'Statement Reference' (or 'Reference1'), which I think is 0.5mV.

The next one down in both lines is called the 'Master' ... I was told that these are simply References which don't meet the high tolerance levels required of the 'Reference'.

Regards,

Andy

[Quiet Earth]

Help me understand this a little better. I see two possibilities for SRA when I look at this picture :




1. If I look along the right verticle edge of the piece that is going down into the record ( stylus assembly?), I see less than 90 degrees SRA. It looks like mid or upper 80s to me.

2. But, if I draw an imaginary verticle line down the center of this piece, then yes I see greater than 90 degrees SRA. Is this how we determine the angle, by the imaginary line down the center? I don't seem to ever be able to see the actual stylus TIP in the groove when I see a picture. How can we say the stylus tip is really 92 degrees in the groove if we can't see it when it is buried in the groove?  The tip is hard enough to see when it is not in the groove, if you can see it at all.

This is the part that I'm having the most trouble with as I try to learn more about the 92 degree rule. It seems like there are too many ways to look at it wrong and trick your eyes into seeing what you want to see. For me anyway, because I am completely inexperienced at this level.

On the plus side of all of this, I have been reading up on the 92 degree rule and at least I feel like I understand the idea behind it. I'm cool with the concept whether it's true, trivial, or important. It has given me some fuel to reevaluate my own set up the best that I can with the primitive tools and poor eye sight that I possess. I will admit that there is only so far I can take my own set up due to my personal limits (tools and eyesite) and the physical limits of my table/arm. I'm not going to shim anything or make any modifications just yet, but I feel like I am a little smarter for following this thread.

Plus I have been spinning a lot of records  .

Thanks to all of you.

[andyr]

Help me understand this a little better.

... if I draw an imaginary verticle line down the center of this piece, then yes I see greater than 90 degrees SRA. Is this how we determine the angle, by the imaginary line down the center?

Yes, imagine a line through the centre of the "cone" which is the stylus.

Regards,

Andy