[BaMorin]

Thanks, Neo.  You da man.  I'd be interested to know details about the stylus tip itself.  Think I'll call Grado tomorrow and ask for their most senior advisor to discuss the above and I'll relay what he says.  I have no sense of any mistracking or any other anomalies, just the absense of any thinning caused by a too severe SRA, it would seem.  Agree completely with JR bout tracking being "parallel" with the groove.  Which makes me wonder bout the groove itself and is the reason I've been playing different albums.  Wish you blokes could hear what I'm hearing.  Then, again, I suppose you could, more or less, if you would take the trouble.  Just change your arm height to parallel and play something with an upfront vocal.  Make sure one of which is male.  Mark Murphy's baritone is in-the-flesh.  Hi fi cues are absent, just a big natural and fullfilling sound.  That's what I am getting.

John G and John C are on vacation.....call 'em next week.  The lady that is answering the phone right now is kinda new onboard.

Oh, and what I'm hearing is just fine.   I just picked up an obscure Grado cart of old and wanted to talk to one of the boys about it. ( that's how I know they ain't there)

[jimdgoulding]

Mark Murphy is someone jazz lovers should know about:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=mark+murphy

"Stolen Moments" ought to get it.

Ba, that's what I thought, too, but then I ventured.  Thanks for the info.

[jimdgoulding]

Ohhh tay, I raised my tonearm base a couple millimeters or so.  I recovered some imagery and separation of instruments at risk and so far haven't lost any of harmonic richness that I achieved.  My ears are as good as Michael Fremer's and it's my ears that I most care about.  92 degrees, while detailed imagery is more apparent, the music suffers some to me.  The mid range body and naturalness to include smoothness of timbre that I gained this past week, wealth to me soul, is staying.  On my system, this music lover says Fremer is wrong about my cartridge.  WTF is he listening to or for?  It can't be the beauty of purity.  He must have some agenda.  That's not saying that you do, Wayner.

[BaMorin]

Ohhh tay, I raised my tonearm base a couple millimeters or so.  I recovered some imagery and separation of instruments at risk and so far haven't lost any of harmonic richness that I achieved.  My ears are as good as Michael Fremer's and it's my ears that I most care about.  92 degrees, while detailed imagery is more apparent, the music suffers some to me.  The mid range body and naturalness to include smoothness of timbre that I gained this past week, wealth to me soul, is staying.  On my system, this music lover says Fremer is wrong about my cartridge.  WTF is he listening to or for?  It can't be the beauty of purity.  He must have some agenda.  That's not saying that you do, Wayner.

The natural cut of the diamond on that Sonata should be 92 deg to the album when the cart is sitting dead nuts level at 90 deg.  A photo of the diamond can be found on this site under HiFi cartridge reviews.

http://daveyw.edsstuff.org/index.htm.

 You'll notice the Grado styli cut this way, the Signature 8MR, MCZ, and Sonata.
The standard Grado eliptical found on the Black through Gold is not. 
Prolly what you're hearing is pushing the stylus rake angle too far by moving the ass of the cart up.
From your posts, your hearing is probably just fine. 

[jimdgoulding]

That's news a feller can use.  The link didn't work however.  Been seriously listening all afternoon.  Call me crazy, but I am longing for that mid range that I had last night.  I didn't retain as much of that mid range body and life as I thought (last post).  I may venture back downward, again, for that reason.  I'm thinking round a 90 degree SRA to record groove.  We shall see.  Hanging out with friends, I can always go back to 92 and marvel them with 3D imagery and depth of field, but in the depth of nite, it's just for me.  Thanks for your info, seriously.

[jimdgoulding]

BaMorin, just thought of something . . isn't what you previously posted contrary to Wayner's illustration above?  Curious about that, fellas.

[BaMorin]

BaMorin, just thought of something . . isn't what you previously posted contrary to Wayner's illustration above?  Curious about that, fellas.

http://daveyw.edsstuff.org/index.htm.

Not sure why the link didn't work.  The rake angle of the Sonata, and the others I listed is at 92deg when the cart is at 90 deg.  So yes and no regarding what Wayne posted. In Wayne's illustration, the scanning surface of the diamond in the drawing is set perpendicular to the album with the cart parallel. In order to get the 92deg, the tail has to be lifted.

[jimdgoulding]

Thanks for trying again.  Does it open on your end cause it still doesn't on my end?  Could I be missing something that needs to be done?  You're saying that when the cart body is dead level to the record, its 92 in the groove, right?  That's not what Wayner is showing us, is it?  Wayner?

[andyr]

As you may also know, I mod Grado's for Frank.

Wayner

Hi Wayner,

What sort of modding of Grados do you do?  I ask because I have a Reference Platinum (which I bought about 7 years ago, as a backup for when I have to send my #1 cart (a Benz Ruby 2 and then LP) away for retipping - which can take up to 3 months).

But recently, I bought a Reference Reference1 (which I've been listening to nearly exclusively, since I bought it  ) on the basis of hearing one at a mate of mine's.  I bought it in the hope that I would get a better sound from it ... than with the Benz LP+head amp.

Regards,

Andy

[Ericus Rex]

Thanks for trying again.  Does it open on your end cause it still doesn't on my end?  Could I be missing something that needs to be done?  You're saying that when the cart body is dead level to the record, its 92 in the groove, right?  That's not what Wayner is showing us, is it?  Wayner?

Try this one:

http://daveyw.edsstuff.org

[jimdgoulding]

Mo betta.  Thanks, Rex.  Davey sounds like he's sitting right beside me.  38k ohm loading is very interesting, indeed.  Thanks, Ba.

Hi, Andy.

[BaMorin]

Mo betta.  Thanks, Rex.  Davey sounds like he's sitting right beside me.  38k ohm loading is very interesting, indeed.  Thanks, Ba.

Hi, Andy.

not quite sure why the links came out like they did. Glad the proper link got posted. Re Loading:  Going from 47K to 38K shouldn't have much noticable effects.......except for albums recorded a bit hot on the high side. Which was the case in some aspects. Also loading is quite system dependant. Not all 47K inputs are created equal.....and certainly not the topology of the phono sections, preamps, amps, speakers, room, etc.  Most of the upper end styli and carts on that site were mine I sent him for his evaluations. The "frankenGrado" carts
requirements for loading on his system is quite different on my system. Where one on his works best at 10K, on mine it's 28K. The Denon DL-S1 and the Grado Sonata-1 were his "benchmark" carts to compare all else to. A lot of the write-ups on carts on that site were done previous to the above mentioned carts. So in some aspects, reading between the lines and downloading the sound clips for personal evaluation is needed.

[Wayner]

I built this nifty little loading box for fiddlin' around.



I can change load very easily and can confirm when I use 2 VOMs.

While on some recordings, loading on the Grado may benefit, I thought that the 47k load was proper, tho loading may benefit some phono preamps that where perhaps not matching the standard RIAA curve, which many seem to not do.

Wayner

[avahifi]

Hey Wayne, Andyr asked what you do to the Grado cartridges.

Frank

[Wayner]

I sent him a PM. I think posting in this thread about AVA business is against AC rules..........

Wayner

[avahifi]

Thanks Wayne, good you remembered the rules here.

Frank

[Wayner]

I illustrated the Grado Gold1 series that is just a plain old elliptical stylus. I was actually trying to simply impress to the masses what direction a 92° rake angle looked like to other readers of the post. Lots of my replies are for the masses, because I know this is a very intense subject, filled with lots of opinions. We've had this discussion before and others have thought that a 92° rake angle meant that the ass end of the tonearm be lowered. This simple illustration was meant to only show that relationship.

If your Signature Reference is new, the Grado website indicates that VTA adjustments will be easily audible, but as the suspension breaks in, the VTA may have to change. This certainly can be the situation in your case.

Farting around with VTA reminds me that this thing aint a tone control. You will change the sound by a measurable amount moving the ass end from down to parallel to up. The 92° rake angle has less to do with how the record was cut and more to do with how the stylus tracks the grooves.

However, as you have found out (for the time being) that parallel is good to go. As the suspension breaks in, that will (or may) change.

Wayner

[TheChairGuy]

I sent him a PM. I think posting in this thread about AVA business is against AC rules..........

Wayner

Actually Wayner...no worries if you want into more detail on the forum itself (but I appreciate your consideration)

When you obliged and identified yourself as an AVA Associate on your profile...then everyone knows you have a commercial interest in AVA and audio, in general.

Before you identified yourself as such, this was an unknown except to those that know you fairly well. 'Branding' someone as an industry participant simply makes more transparent everything and probably serves to enhance you and your Grado/AVA modding business.

For the record, as many know, I love the Grado mod as advanced by Frank van Alstine some 30 years ago and have done it myself (albeit much more crudely than Wayner's engineer-perfect work) to 3 Grado cartridges now with great benefits.  I've tried on other cartridge brands and the effect has been not noticeable to barely better in effect. 

Grado's seem to benefit most, among cartridge brands, from enhanced tracking of the outrigger and tamping down the coils inside with light damping material.

[neobop]

The natural cut of the diamond on that Sonata should be 92 deg to the album when the cart is sitting dead nuts level at 90 deg.  A photo of the diamond can be found on this site under HiFi cartridge reviews.

You'll notice the Grado styli cut this way, the Signature 8MR, MCZ, and Sonata.
The standard Grado eliptical found on the Black through Gold is not. 
Prolly what you're hearing is pushing the stylus rake angle too far by moving the ass of the cart up.
From your posts, your hearing is probably just fine. 

I assume all the woodies are like the Sonata, set at level/92 ?
Wonder if the non user replaceable stylus has something to do with it.

___________________
"The 92° rake angle has less to do with how the record was cut and more to do with how the stylus tracks the grooves."

I'm not sure what this means.  The whole idea of setting SRA is to match the stylus angle to the cut. That's how you track the grooves with the least distortion.  Many people make a big deal with alignment, yet ignore SRA. Not directed at anyone in particular, but some don't seem to hear it.  Have to go with Mikey on this one, it can make a big difference.  I just prefer on the fly. 

[Wayner]

If we have a lead-in angle on the cutting head, it is smearing time. If the cutting head was at a perfect 90°, this would not happen, but as with all lathes, the cutter needs to have an angle to it to keep it from "chattering".

The throw-back to it all is the draft angle of the groove, in respect to time. And with respect to draft and product removal, or even product insertion (for that matter) into the mold, a lean in the cut, at any other angle other then zero, will mean bastardization of the signal, because between the mold and the LP being pressed, there is physical interference at separation or insertion. Houston, we have a problem.

As an example, if we hold our finger straight up or down, or at an angle, and write our names in the sand, the sand did not care, the name is there. But when you cut material that has a resistance to cut, it impedes natural motion. That is why lathe operators use a "lead in angle" to make the cut. The surface ends up the same, to a lay person, but the technique to get it to look natural, took a bit of ingenuity.

That is why my opinion is that the 92° SRA is more a result of better tracking (by natural causes), because the cartridge likes to have a slight lean-in angle, as opposed to the theory that that is how the master was made. This is also demagnified by the fact that the contact surface of any stylii is small, minimizing the effects of time smear.

In conclusion, the set-up of a table can be very complex. It's a 3 dimensional machine with many force vectors in multiple directions. Try doing that with your CD player...........

Wayner