Grado phono cartridges

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BaMorin

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Re: Grado phono cartridges
« Reply #40 on: 14 Aug 2012, 04:05 am »
I assume all the woodies are like the Sonata, set at level/92 ?
Wonder if the non user replaceable stylus has something to do with it.

___________________

The Platinum (woody) has the standard eliptical cut found on the Gold stylus. The Sonata is where the difference in diamond comes in.

Russell Dawkins

Re: Grado phono cartridges
« Reply #41 on: 14 Aug 2012, 08:48 am »
Mark Murphy is someone jazz lovers should know about:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=mark+murphy

"Stolen Moments" ought to get it.

Ba, that's what I thought, too, but then I ventured.  Thanks for the info.

I mastered Mark Murphy's last CD - "Never Let Me Go" ©2010. A very creative singer.
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/markmurphy2

neobop

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Re: Grado phono cartridges
« Reply #42 on: 14 Aug 2012, 12:17 pm »
If we have a lead-in angle on the cutting head, it is smearing time. If the cutting head was at a perfect 90°, this would not happen, but as with all lathes, the cutter needs to have an angle to it to keep it from "chattering".

The throw-back to it all is the draft angle of the groove, in respect to time. And with respect to draft and product removal, or even product insertion (for that matter) into the mold, a lean in the cut, at any other angle other then zero, will mean bastardization of the signal, because between the mold and the LP being pressed, there is physical interference at separation or insertion. Houston, we have a problem.

As an example, if we hold our finger straight up or down, or at an angle, and write our names in the sand, the sand did not care, the name is there. But when you cut material that has a resistance to cut, it impedes natural motion. That is why lathe operators use a "lead in angle" to make the cut. The surface ends up the same, to a lay person, but the technique to get it to look natural, took a bit of ingenuity.

That is why my opinion is that the 92° SRA is more a result of better tracking (by natural causes), because the cartridge likes to have a slight lean-in angle, as opposed to the theory that that is how the master was made. This is also demagnified by the fact that the contact surface of any stylii is small, minimizing the effects of time smear.

In conclusion, the set-up of a table can be very complex. It's a 3 dimensional machine with many force vectors in multiple directions. Try doing that with your CD player...........

Wayner

The cutting angle angle doesn't smear time or generate IMD.  That only occurs if the playback stylus doesn't match the angle.  It's actually vertical alignment.

The heated surface of a master, or direct to disc vinyl record, is neither sand or a hard substance.  Maintaining a 90 angle is not a requirement for accurate reproduction of the groove (stamper to disc).  The word plastic used as an adjective, means capable of being molded.  That would include a figurine or an LP, although different processes.  Millions of records have been pressed over the years and the limitations seem to be with playback or poorly made records.  IMO the only reason to call ground control is to alert others about bad pressings.

If someone is unfamiliar with record players, all this stuff seems daunting.  But you and I know that once into it, you don't need a PHD in physics, or even a BS in BS, to set-up a spinner. 
These complexities of set-up and maintenance requirements, were most of the reason many were anxious to dump vinyl and embrace CD ('80s). Many people figured the CD would improve and it would be "perfect sound forever".  In the mean time they put up with jitter and strident sound etc.  History repeats itself.  This morning I heard another news report about declining CD sales, in favor of U-tube and other internet music.  It's still about convenience.  If you're really into music.....
My 2 cents,
neo

jimdgoulding

Re: Grado phono cartridges
« Reply #43 on: 14 Aug 2012, 12:53 pm »
I mastered Mark Murphy's last CD - "Never Let Me Go" ©2010. A very creative singer.
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/markmurphy2
Russell, Hi.  On THAT Mark Murphy, on the site, anyway, he sounds old as if he has lost some range and slow almost as if the speed is off.  CD baby got Satisfaction Guaranteed?  Stolen Moments is justified.  Both made in the 70's.  Best.

Quiet Earth

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Re: Grado phono cartridges
« Reply #44 on: 14 Aug 2012, 01:49 pm »
Lot's of good info in this thread guys. Didn't know about the 92 degree rule, I will keep that in mind.

I'm glad that suspension was mentioned earlier, because that's what I was curious about. I was messing around with my own cartridge's SRA (ever so slightly) a couple of weeks ago, and I wondered about the aging suspension and what role it plays in finding/maintaining the correct SRA. Is this a factor worth considering?

 Jim, you mentioned your cart is going on 9 years, and I know you play a lot of records. Do you think you are realigning the SRA for an aging suspension?


jimdgoulding

Re: Grado phono cartridges
« Reply #45 on: 14 Aug 2012, 02:55 pm »
Hi, Quiet.  Well, that's a probabilty.  What started me on the subject was what I began hearing when I dropped the tonearm sightly down in the rear, changing the SRA, and popping on my Manitas de Plata record.  Then Mr. Murohy and so on.  A closer perspective resulted with fleshed out vocals like I've never heard.  My emotional connection to the music went thru the roof.  There is less space and instrumental precision in space, but instruments sound sooo pure.  This all started with my SRA at approx, I believe, 92 degrees.  Going back and forth has confirmed what I was and am hearing.  Were you listening in my seat, you'd be as hard pressed as I am at settling for 92 degrees.  I'm not saying what I am hearing is more right, just more completely there in the flesh, bigger, purer and beautiful.  I'll likely end up with two VTA settings but I will continue today to find a happy medium.  I was very satisfied until I stumbled on this. 

BaMorin

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Re: Grado phono cartridges
« Reply #46 on: 14 Aug 2012, 06:01 pm »
Hi, Quiet.  Well, that's a probabilty.  What started me on the subject was what I began hearing when I dropped the tonearm sightly down in the rear, changing the SRA, and popping on my Manitas de Plata record.  Then Mr. Murohy and so on.  A closer perspective resulted with fleshed out vocals like I've never heard.  My emotional connection to the music went thru the roof.  There is less space and instrumental precision in space, but instruments sound sooo pure.  This all started with my SRA at approx, I believe, 92 degrees.  Going back and forth has confirmed what I was and am hearing.  Were you listening in my seat, you'd be as hard pressed as I am at settling for 92 degrees.  I'm not saying what I am hearing is more right, just more completely there in the flesh, bigger, purer and beautiful.  I'll likely end up with two VTA settings but I will continue today to find a happy medium.  I was very satisfied until I stumbled on this.

Not sure grado carts suffer much from suspension hardening over the years. My G1+ has about 150 hours on it now, but was manufactured in 1979. I'm still thinking you've managed to get the SRA to close to 92deg by bringing the back end down some. You may have taken it further (closer to 90deg)??? The Rega arm isn't easily adjusted for VTA/SRA. I still believe that in hearing the fullness to the note (it's complete attack, sustain, decay) tells me you're close.  On another note, the difference between the Sonata and Sonata-1 is the ability to finely define the intrument while keeping the "flesh". It also has about 20% more soundstage width wise, and about 30% more in front to back depth.

Russell Dawkins

Re: Grado phono cartridges
« Reply #47 on: 14 Aug 2012, 06:16 pm »
Russell, Hi.  On THAT Mark Murphy, on the site, anyway, he sounds old as if he has lost some range and slow almost as if the speed is off.  CD baby got Satisfaction Guaranteed?  Stolen Moments is justified.  Both made in the 70's.  Best.

I am not all that familiar with his older work, but he is around 78 here and I presumed his sound reflected his age and experience as a jazz singer with a lo-o-o-ong history!

Wayner

Re: Grado phono cartridges
« Reply #48 on: 14 Aug 2012, 08:56 pm »
Not sure grado carts suffer much from suspension hardening over the years. My G1+ has about 150 hours on it now, but was manufactured in 1979. I'm still thinking you've managed to get the SRA to close to 92deg by bringing the back end down some. You may have taken it further (closer to 90deg)??? The Rega arm isn't easily adjusted for VTA/SRA. I still believe that in hearing the fullness to the note (it's complete attack, sustain, decay) tells me you're close.  On another note, the difference between the Sonata and Sonata-1 is the ability to finely define the intrument while keeping the "flesh". It also has about 20% more soundstage width wise, and about 30% more in front to back depth.

I believe you are there when you achieve maximum room ambiance of the recording/and or reverberation and air that goes on forever. I think this was brought up before, like what to listen for. While some of you listen for the way the musical instruments sound or behave, I listen to the sound in between the notes.

The one thing this thread may reveal to some is that while there are a lots of adjustments that can take you into/or out of sonic bliss, there sure is some shit buried in them there grooves.

I just can't believe the amount of "high definition" analog is simply waiting for you to come and get. This is what brings out the emotions of the music, at least for me at any rate. The fun thing is that you don't need an Excalibur table to get these results. In a way, it's proof that brains over brawn wins the cup (or gets to hear great music).

Wayner

Russell Dawkins

Re: Grado phono cartridges
« Reply #49 on: 14 Aug 2012, 09:12 pm »
I hesitate to suggest this, as many cannot implement it, but I have found that an effective way of judging all the cartridge alignment adjustments is to listen to a mono recording played back through some device that will let you hear the S component of the signal. The "S" component is the difference between the left and right signals.

Any difference between the left and right signal from a mono recording must be an error, right? A perfect mono signal would be identical in both channels and the "S" or difference signal would be zero. what you will hear is surface noise and a distorted version of the signal, because vinyl playback is not perfect.

I understand this can be done most simply (and cheaply) by picking off a line level signal between the left and right hots, isolated with highish value resistors, but I have never done this, as I have always had on hand some form of MS decoder, such as the one in the Apt Holman preamp I used to use, as well as a couple of hardware MS decoders I used in recording. Nowadays, I use the virtual MS decoder in my Metric Halo interface.

All parameters - tracking angle, azimuth, tracking weight and antiskate can be optimized this way - at least so it seems to me. I have never seen this advertised as a method, so I could be all wet, but it works for me, though.

edited for more clarity (or less distortion)
« Last Edit: 14 Aug 2012, 10:44 pm by Russell Dawkins »

jimdgoulding

Re: Grado phono cartridges
« Reply #50 on: 14 Aug 2012, 10:37 pm »
The sound in between the notes, Wayner?  Been there, done that.  It's been the notes, those lovely notes, for me most recently.  Emotion isn't in the space between the notes, that's the intellectual stuff.   

Wayner

Re: Grado phono cartridges
« Reply #51 on: 14 Aug 2012, 11:06 pm »
The sound in between the notes, Wayner?  Been there, done that.  It's been the notes, those lovely notes, for me most recently.  Emotion isn't in the space between the notes, that's the intellectual stuff.   

It's the connective tissue between the meat.

 :D

jimdgoulding

Re: Grado phono cartridges
« Reply #52 on: 15 Aug 2012, 01:26 am »
It's the connective tissue between the meat.

 :D
:shake:
If Ba is correct, my brother, I may be closer to 92 degrees than YOU!  I'm probably under it a hair, tho, or two, depending.  That's just for me.  When I have me bro's over, I'll give them more of they're used to.  More hi-fi.

cadet30

Re: Grado phono cartridges
« Reply #53 on: 15 Aug 2012, 02:39 am »
My Sonata always seemed to sound better slightly tail down. here is a pic (sorry best I could do) but it seems that to get near 92 degrees, the tail would have to be slightly down because the pic seems to show the mounting for the diamond is not parallel to the bottom of the cartridge as in the drawing provided by Wayner.I don't know if this one was out of spec but it sure sounded good for a long time tail down.


jimdgoulding

Re: Grado phono cartridges
« Reply #54 on: 15 Aug 2012, 05:35 am »
Welcome, two posts jr member Cadet.  Thanks for your point of view.  Hang in here.

Ericus Rex

Re: Grado phono cartridges
« Reply #55 on: 15 Aug 2012, 11:54 am »
My Sonata always seemed to sound better slightly tail down. here is a pic (sorry best I could do) but it seems that to get near 92 degrees, the tail would have to be slightly down because the pic seems to show the mounting for the diamond is not parallel to the bottom of the cartridge as in the drawing provided by Wayner.I don't know if this one was out of spec but it sure sounded good for a long time tail down.


The tracking force changes the angle of the cantilever relative to the body.  All measurements should be done with stylus in groove.  Welcome cadet!

Wayner

Re: Grado phono cartridges
« Reply #56 on: 15 Aug 2012, 12:00 pm »
My Sonata always seemed to sound better slightly tail down. here is a pic (sorry best I could do) but it seems that to get near 92 degrees, the tail would have to be slightly down because the pic seems to show the mounting for the diamond is not parallel to the bottom of the cartridge as in the drawing provided by Wayner.I don't know if this one was out of spec but it sure sounded good for a long time tail down.


As per an earlier post, SRA is measured with the stylus in the groove, under it's used tracking weight. 92° is a measurement of the stylus in the groove. As many suspensions (under proper VTF) will very, the fact is that the tail end of the tonearm can end up in almost any position.

The normal rule of thumb with a "normal" suspension (and that is a SRA of 90° with the arm parallel), will result in the tail end up in the air.

Observing the stylus and cantilever in free air is not the correct way to determining SRA.

Wayner


Wayner

Re: Grado phono cartridges
« Reply #57 on: 15 Aug 2012, 12:02 pm »
Ericus Rex beat me too it (by seconds apparently), but there you go...

Wayner  :D

jimdgoulding

Re: Grado phono cartridges
« Reply #58 on: 15 Aug 2012, 02:56 pm »
Well, heck, I'm not viewing the cart in the air, in the groove is what, but that's good FYI.

Tell you something that could be a variable, how the top of the cart fits your headshell.  The HS may not be as flat as your think with the cart in place.  Worth checking. 

cadet30

Re: Grado phono cartridges
« Reply #59 on: 15 Aug 2012, 03:59 pm »
Yes, tracking force must be applied to set correct SRA. The point I was really trying to make is that "correct" SRA of 92 degrees is not always with the cartridge top parallel to the record surface. As Michael Fremer's pics on the analog planet show, many cartridges are not parallel and some differ quite a bit from samples of the same model.  One should always listen and/or measure. (if you have a usb microscope) I doubt that anyone can say just where the correct SRA will be given the apparent variations. So we all have to listen and/or measure and trust our ears.