[jimdgoulding]

There are enough of us here with Grado's to swap some thinking, I imagine.  I use a Signature Reference bought new at the list price of 500 beans.  It's mounted in a Rega 250 arm with an Expressimo mod which consists of a steel stub and low slung steel counterweight mounted on a well isolated Nottingham Horizon table. 

When I first got it the instructions suggested a tracking angle with the arm slightly down at the pivot.  I never tried that until last night.  The tracking angle is probably minus one to two degrees to perpendicular, or straight perpendicular, impossible for me to see for sure.  It was down appreciably from where it was, I can tell you that.  I put on Manitas de Plata from one of his live Connoisseur Society records, Viva Manitas de Plata!  John Steinbeck called him "A savage and mesmerizing artist".  This is the real deal to include the most passionate vocals I have ever, ever heard, recorded on tape with a small audience at an abbey in Arles, France in the late 60's.  I believe this is from a series recorded then and there one of which (Volume One) won A Grand Prix du disque, Paris, 1967).

What I had been missing, the fleshed out vividness of the guitar and voices positively floored me.  Things sprang to life!  I mean I could hear (and feel) just how really real they are on this.  My midrange was the beneficiary as was my emotional connection to the music.  I had no idea.  I will resume listening to other things tonite.  I went to bed exhausted.  The fine tuning on my table and arm has to be done manually and it wore my ass out.   

[Wayner]

According to Mr. Fremer, you have actually went the wrong way. The tonearm at the rear end should be up. Fremer (via others who have done tests) say that the best angle is at 92° which means the ass end is up, not down.

While you may perceive a change in tonal color of your recordings, and you may like it, the stylus is now in a very dragging situation. SRA, or stylus rake angle, cut on the master lacqures is also at approximately 92°.
This angle keeps the stylus from chattering in the grooves, but does not put undue pressure on the cantilever. Right now your cantilever is indeed spring loaded, if you will. I'm pretty confident that if you change your rake angle to go the otherway, you will hear the same benefits you are hearing now, with less "twisting of the arm" on your cartridge.

If you care, give it a try, you can always go back to your setting. I am glad that there are other people that are thinking that a parallel arm may not be the correct answer to proper playback.

Wayner

[Wayner]

As you may also know, I mod Grado's for Frank. I have talked to Grado and they also agree that a 92° rake angle is perhaps beneficial and may improve track-ability with some tonearms.





Wayner

[jimdgoulding]

Wayner, Hi.  Glad you're here.  I will play with the SRA, but 92 degrees is more or less where I came from.  I remember an illustration that came with the Grado showing the rear of the cartridge set down a bit rather than up.  You ever see that?  I'm trying to find the box to verify.

Found the box but no illustration.  Doo-doo.  Somebody please tell me that they've seen one.  I'm certain I haven't imagined it.

[Wayner]

All Grado instructions say to set it at 90°. I have 50 or so copies if you want any. They kind of go with the flow on the parallel arm issue, but when I asked the real question and brought up Fremer's name, the went along with the 92° concept. I do run all my tables this way now (if they have VTA adjustment) and I like it a bit better then the parallel arm.

My concern is more of wear and tear on the records. I sure we can all understand that a stylus chattering around in the grooves is not a happy camper, and if the 92° rake angle fixes this as claimed, who could deny that? The other issue about SRA is that you actually have to determine where the stylus is first before you do anything. Fremer suggests a USB microscope to view the stylus in the groove to measure it as it is. Then make adjustments according to the initial observations. He has said that some very expensive cartridges from the factory have been off by as much as 3° from parallel arm, making that 87°. to get to 92° would require a 5° shift, and probably most arms would not be capable of that distance.

Rule of thumb for standard 9" arms is .25° is about 1mm of movement. So if you were off by 5°, you would have to set your arm up 20mm.....

Good God that would look completely stupid. Probably not be good for the bearings and everything else. So while this maybe the theory, some common sense has to take over at some point.

Wayner

[jimdgoulding]

You give me pause, for sure, about a potential damage issue.  I will listen to a few more albums and see if I am as enamored as with the de Plata album.  Then, I'll experiment some more as you've suggested.  If you like Flamenco playing and singing, Wayner, de Plata and this album is unlike any Flamenco album you may have ever heard.  It is for me.  De Plata is not classically trained like, say, Paco Pena, for example.  He is raw gypsy with passion in spades and the live recording serves the going on's wonderfully. 

I also have a Koetsu Black on a different table and arm and my phono pre can do low output carts, too, which I am in the process of re-setting it up, as well.  Thanks for your input.  I thought we may have heard from other Grado users which I would like to encourage.

[BaMorin]

I'm assuming this is a Reference Sonata in the original mahogany body? The newer Sonata-1 comes in the (darker colored) Jarrah wood.  The original Sonata may indeed sound a touch more romantic at slightly less than 90deg. Not all this has to do with the cart itself but reaction to the reaction of the tonearm especially at the vertical pivots.

[jimdgoulding]

BaMorin, good of you to chime in.  Thanks.  I can't say about the wood.  It's about eight or nine years old.  I visited the Grado site and had no idea about all the positive professional reviews!  Wow.

[jimdgoulding]

With my meager Radio Shack 15X magnifying glass, the stylus looks to be 90 degrees at the new arm height.  I have a mat cover that has slightly more depth than an average record but w/o grooves to hide the stylus tip.  Factoring in the stylus tracing a record groove, that could become 88 or 89 degrees at play.  Or not, I can't really tell when a record is being played. 

Wayner, anyone, knowing this, do you really think the stylus would actually do damage to a record?  The stylus tip is not a micro ridge or anything like that, I don't think.  What say you?  Thanks.

No edge or sense of loss that I can tell.  On the contrary, it sounds quieter and fuller, more like the real thing and less like a reproduction of it so far with more albums.

[neobop]

Hi Jim,
If there is no mistracking (or dancing, jitter) and the SQ is good, you should have nothing to worry about.  If you wanted to try it with a shim or two under the arm base, that shouldn't hurt anything either. Changing arm height will affect alignment, so you should check that.  Your underslung counterweight will lower the center of gravity and eff mass of the arm.  Maybe BaMorin has something to add about bearing height or loading options, otherwise go with what sounds best.

91 or 92 degrees is "right" for approx 80% of all records, depending on your collection.  Over the yrs cutterhead VTA varied from 18 to about 24 degrees. Although there is a difference between VTA and SRA variance because of the angle of the tip to cantilever, actual correct SRA will be between 91 and 95 degrees. Even records from the '50s or '60s seem to sound good somehow within a degree (that's 4mm for a 9" arm) of 92.

If you're trying to ballpark this on a flat surface w/o a record groove, then the angle would increase just a tiny bit when in the groove. If you're interested in SRA, this guy Jon Risch did the groundbreaking in 1980 and 81, which is the basis for Fremer's revelation.

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/1240.html

[Photon46]

I've been running my Grado Reference Master 1 at 90º out of habit and after being reminded about the 92º by Wayner, I tried getting close to the 92º (within the limits of accuracy imposed by my lack of a 'scope.) I must say that I prefer it this way, a bit more sparkle and illumination in the high end. When I change from my Ortofon Kontrapunkt H to the Grado, I notice diminished high frequency information and this change in the SRA lessens the differences between them.

[Wayner]

There is the other mechanical problem of the que lever. Many arms do not alloy for much adjustment of height (lowering it in this case) like  my Empire, and the only other solution is to shim the cartridge in the headshell as has been suggested. My 2 Sony DD tables do not even have adjustable VTA so I haven't done a thing with them.

I am not suggesting that a parallel arm is going to do anymore record groove damage then normal play, but if a 92° SRA makes for sonic improvements, that is solely because the stylus is tracking better, and that can only lead to better "wear-ability" for the grooves, at least to my way of thinking. If you can't get to 92°, no big deal, but if you can even get just a smidgen of a degree more, I think it will help. The ears have to be the final judge on this, again.

Have fun.

Wayner

[rollo]

If one is using a 12" arm would 92 D be Ok ?


charles

[Wayner]

Yes, I'd think the 92° goes for all length arms and arm types (even linear tracking ones).

W

[jimdgoulding]

I've been running my Grado Reference Master 1 at 90º out of habit and after being reminded about the 92º by Wayner, I tried getting close to the 92º (within the limits of accuracy imposed by my lack of a 'scope.) I must say that I prefer it this way, a bit more sparkle and illumination in the high end. When I change from my Ortofon Kontrapunkt H to the Grado, I notice diminished high frequency information and this change in the SRA lessens the differences between them.

At 92 (approx) you're going to gain some soundstage magic cause the leading edge of transients is more obvious but the mid range is decisively leaner in my system but that could account for what you've written about your highs.  Just try vocals, male or female.  They remain focused but fuller with more reach-out-and-touch-it realism.  Completely grainless as is everything.  My soundstage is wider, but with a foreshortening of depth of field.  I attribute the latter to a more fully comprehensive attack.  In a nutshell, my system just doesn't sound like a system.  Could be it's more pure-fi as a result and less hi-fi.  That's what I THINK I'm hearing.  The WHOLE of me is subjectively happier. 

Wayner, the clearance between stylus tip and the record surface is pretty slim as you've pointed out.

Bopdaddy, most of my best sounding records regardless of genre were made and purchased in the 70's if that tells you anything.

[BaMorin]

At 92 (approx) you're going to gain some soundstage magic cause the leading edge of transients is more obvious but the mid range is decisively leaner in my system but that could account for what you've written about your highs.  Just try vocals, male or female.  They remain focused but fuller with more reach-out-and-touch-it realism.  Completely grainless as is everything.  My soundstage is wider, but with a foreshortening of depth of field.  I attribute the latter to a more fully comprehensive attack.  In a nutshell, my system just doesn't sound like a system.  Could be it's more pure-fi as a result and less hi-fi.  That's what I THINK I'm hearing.  The WHOLE of me is subjectively happier. 

Wayner, the clearance between stylus tip and the record surface is pretty slim as you've pointed out.

Bopdaddy, most of my best sounding records regardless of genre were made and purchased in the 70's if that tells you anything.

AH, yes and no.  In order for the vocals to be more in order of how you would hear vocals in a pure acoustic situation, and not a recorded amplified situation, you are hearing the depth of the vocals themselves. IE, the back of the note as well as the front of the note. And of course the space and time between front and back. This is where the "grado" sound flurishes over most every cart when it is working properly. Having said that, the major difference between my original Sonata and the Sonata-1 I now have is the totality of front to back soundstage is about 30% greater. The micro front to back depth of each note sung, plucked, struck, etc is also greater.

[BaMorin]

Hi Jim,
If there is no mistracking (or dancing, jitter) and the SQ is good, you should have nothing to worry about.  If you wanted to try it with a shim or two under the arm base, that shouldn't hurt anything either. Changing arm height will affect alignment, so you should check that.  Your underslung counterweight will lower the center of gravity and eff mass of the arm.  Maybe BaMorin has something to add about bearing height or loading options, otherwise go with what sounds best.

91 or 92 degrees is "right" for approx 80% of all records, depending on your collection.  Over the yrs cutterhead VTA varied from 18 to about 24 degrees. Although there is a difference between VTA and SRA variance because of the angle of the tip to cantilever, actual correct SRA will be between 91 and 95 degrees. Even records from the '50s or '60s seem to sound good somehow within a degree (that's 4mm for a 9" arm) of 92.

If you're trying to ballpark this on a flat surface w/o a record groove, then the angle would increase just a tiny bit when in the groove. If you're interested in SRA, this guy Jon Risch did the groundbreaking in 1980 and 81, which is the basis for Fremer's revelation.

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/1240.html

Hi Neo,  the underslung weight doesn't affect effective mass in the vertical sense, it does affect the torque of the arm in the lateral sense. It reduces the lateral (im)balace of the arm. Where it affects the vertical sense is in how the bearings in the vertical react at first impulse. One of two main issues with the stock arm is the counterweight load distribution, and the vertical bearings "skootching" before they start rolling. During that "skootching" period the arm has almost infinite mass as seen by the cantilever/suspension. The majority of the mass of the counter weight now being below centerline of the bearings reduce that "skootch" moment.
One of the other great additions to the RB arm is the bearing modification offered by a company from England I believe. The change in diameter of the bearing assembly reduces that effect to about 1/4 of the stock bearing.

[jimdgoulding]

AH, yes and no.  In order for the vocals to be more in order of how you would hear vocals in a pure acoustic situation, and not a recorded amplified situation, you are hearing the depth of the vocals themselves. IE, the back of the note as well as the front of the note. And of course the space and time between front and back. This is where the "grado" sound flurishes over most every cart when it is working properly. Having said that, the major difference between my original Sonata and the Sonata-1 I now have is the totality of front to back soundstage is about 30% greater. The micro front to back depth of each note sung, plucked, struck, etc is also greater.

I've been listening to vocals miked from a distance, Blumien or four mics in a live setting, etc., and close up in the studio.  Blimey, both are more satisfying to me on all counts.  There is less leading edge emphasis at 90 degrees and while that may sound like an image might be duller or more diffuse, what I'm getting is more real sounding, more complete sounding, and soul satisfying.   

[neobop]

Mark,
Sounds right. I have no experience with those arms.  It turns out that MOI is the same as eff mass, just expressed diff.  This is from a tonearm designer, but I thought considerations were both vert and horiz.  Bearing upgrade seems like a great idea.  Maybe it's Audiomods?

From the link above, Jon Risch provides a good description of SRA implications.

Getting the stylus contact line to line up with the HF modulations of the groove wall is similar to aligning a tape haed to the recorded waves on the magnetic tape: you want them to be totally parallel with one another. When a fine line stylus is not aligned with the groove wall in terms of matching the SRA to the record walls groove angle as cut by the cutting stylus, then the footprint of the stylus will be riding over more than a single HF groove wiggle at a time. This results in a loss of HF's, and a blurring in time of the recovered signal, just like on a tape deck. If that was all that occurred, then incorrect SRA would be rather benign.

However, the situation for the groove wall is not like that of the tape deck, the groove wall and stylus are a mechanical interface whereby the groove wall modulations can torque on the stylus edge as it passes over the modulations at a rake angle that is not the same. This tends to generate spurious signals that are not harmonically related to the original signal, and the torquing tends to cause the intrisnic cartridge cantilever/moving system resonances to be excited and stimulated. The result: hash and HF frazzle that reaches surprisingly low in the audio band due to intermodulation with the signals being recovered from the record groove.

Are the fuller vocals the result of IMD?  Loss of HFs would tend to imply that. On the other hand, if your records are mostly US pressings from the '70s, maybe not.  Cutterhead standards were changed in an irregular manner. Most were changed over by the mid '80s. Only you can decide what's right. Maybe you could try a setting closer to 92 and see how that works out. Instead of listening to vocals vs highs, sometimes an acoustic bass is revealing. When the arm is too low you'll usually get good deep bass. If the upper bass/lower mid comes into focus and sounds much better on a bass solo with the arm raised, then you're much closer IMO. If you change arm height, don't forget to check alignment with anti-skate off.

[jimdgoulding]

Thanks, Neo.  You da man.  I'd be interested to know details about the stylus tip itself.  Think I'll call Grado tomorrow and ask for their most senior advisor to discuss the above and I'll relay what he says.  I have no sense of any mistracking or any other anomalies, just the absense of any thinning caused by a too severe SRA, it would seem.  Agree completely with JR bout tracking being "parallel" with the groove.  Which makes me wonder bout the groove itself and is the reason I've been playing different albums.  Wish you blokes could hear what I'm hearing.  Then, again, I suppose you could, more or less, if you would take the trouble.  Just change your arm height to parallel and play something with an upfront vocal.  Make sure one of which is male.  Mark Murphy's baritone is in-the-flesh.  Hi fi cues are absent, just a big natural and fullfilling sound.  That's what I am getting.