[orthobiz]

I haven't read every post in this thread, but has everyone seen the Fremer article on the digital microscope?

http://www.analogplanet.com/content/how-use-usb-digital-microscope-set-92-degree-stylus-rake-angle-sra

Paul

[orthobiz]

My understanding is that this is true of the top 2 models in Grado's HO 'Reference' & LO 'Statement' lines.  The top models in each of these lines is the 'Reference' (or 'Reference1') hence my cartridge is the 4mV 'Reference Reference1'.  The top LO is the 'Statement Reference' (or 'Reference1'), which I think is 0.5mV.

The next one down in both lines is called the 'Master' ... I was told that these are simply References which don't meet the high tolerance levels required of the 'Reference'.

Regards,

Andy

But are they specifically looking at the stylus mounting angle when they differentiate between Master and Reference? Or are there other parameters that the manufacturer thinks are more important?

I don't know either!

Paul

[Quiet Earth]

has everyone seen the Fremer article on the digital microscope?

Just getting started made it sound like something that would probably not go right for me :

"The first step in using the AMT313 or whichever model you choose is to remove the clear plastic LED shield ring. Unless you remove it you cannot get close enough to the stylus to get a good picture. It’s held in place with an adhesive—probably Cyanoacrylate (AKA “Crazy Glue”).

To remove the shield, use both of your thumbs and gently put pressure on the side of the shield. Then rotate the microscope and repeat on the opposite side. You’ll need to go back and forth numerous times applying moderate pressure until nothing happens and the process begins driving you crazy! Don’t give up! Just keep doing it. Eventually the shield will pop off."

Uh..... Yeah, I can see myself off to a good start already.    (laughing at myself)

[jimdgoulding]

I got an email from Grado.  My question for them will be about the stylus tip on my model cartridge, an 8 or 9 year old Sonata Ref.  The email said they would respond to me when they're back in the office.  Once they've answered my questions, I'll listen to several lp's and work it out for MY serenity, hopefully.  I'll mention Fremer's study, but my common sense tells me not to expect anything definitive in reply.  I'll tell you what I end up with and admit to being a romantic.

[andyr]

But are they specifically looking at the stylus mounting angle when they differentiate between Master and Reference? Or are there other parameters that the manufacturer thinks are more important?

I don't know either!

Paul

I don't know either ... but I would think there are several other parameters they need to be concerned with - including separation, FR and R/L channel relative output.

Regards,

Andy

[jimdgoulding]

On my cartridge, a Sonata Reference of some years if you don't know by now, the front of the headshell is recommended to be in a perfect right angle to the record surface and the stylus is purely ellipitical.  I'm goin to try and re-capture the romantic and fully fleshed out mids by going from a right angle south and if I miss the expert soundstaging of the music at the recommended SRA or more, I can always go back.     

Thanks everybody for your participation.  Ya'll be cool.

 

[BaMorin]

But are they specifically looking at the stylus mounting angle when they differentiate between Master and Reference? Or are there other parameters that the manufacturer thinks are more important?

I don't know either!

Paul

The Master and Reference differ in several ways from the Sonata. According to Grado Labs the Master and Reference use a 5 piece cantilever vs 4 piece for the Sonata. The reference to the actual diamond seems to be the same diamond and shape of, between the Master and Sonata. The Reference is said to have a "True Ellipsoid".  How the difference between "Special Grado Type" and "True Ellipsoid" affect the SRA is a big question. Not so sure Grado Labs will want to post "intellectual property", or even respond to the question of.
 

[jimdgoulding]

The Master and Reference differ in several ways from the Sonata. According to Grado Labs the Master and Reference use a 5 piece cantilever vs 4 piece for the Sonata. The reference to the actual diamond seems to be the same diamond and shape of, between the Master and Sonata. The Reference is said to have a "True Ellipsoid".  How the difference between "Special Grado Type" and "True Ellipsoid" affect the SRA is a big question. Not so sure Grado Labs will want to post "intellectual property", or even respond to the question of.

Correct, generally speaking, I think you will find.  Grado may, however, answer that specific question in an email.  Best.

[jimdgoulding]

After making the adjustments per Grado on me cart, the stylus does appear to be a straight up 90 degrees using a reflective surface and a magnifying glass (5/10/15X from the Radio Shack, thanks, Wayner).  Listening to several albums again, there is no need for me to do anything further.  The mids are fuller and more wonderful as I had discovered at the beginning of this chat lowering the arm from what I estimate to have been 92 degrees SRA and soundstaging is fine.  It wasn't necessary for me to lower my arm further.  I think those of you with the higher end Grado carts with ellipitical styli should try this.

[Quiet Earth]

So Jim, ( bear with me brother)

What you are saying is that when you first dropped the rear end down you went from 92 to 90 but didn't really know your exact SRA. You just knew you preferred the sound with the rear end down. Then, you went back up toward 92 to comply with the rule of 92, and said no thanks, been there done that. And now you are happily back to 90 with confirmation from Grado that this is actually the best SRA for your particular cart and which happens to be with the arm a little rear end down.

Whew, that was a mouthful.

[jimdgoulding]

That's about it, Quiet.  With my arm, it would appear that it is a micro something down in the rear.  Same for the cart, actually.  But, the stylus looks to be a pure right angle 90 degrees.  I'm hearing more meat on the bone.  Example:  Art Blakey's cymbals on Live at Keystone 3 (Keystone Korner was an old haunt of mine, BTW) on Concord Jazz, are more complete sounding, more mid body, than it was at what I believe was nearer 92 degrees.  Everything gains some midrange purity and truism, seems to me.  Try it, mate. 

BTW, for you jazz listeners, perhaps I should add OLD jazz listeners, Blakey's Blue Note recordings sound nothing like this.  You ought to check it out.  Hope you can.

[neobop]

My understanding is that this is true of the top 2 models in Grado's HO 'Reference' & LO 'Statement' lines.  The top models in each of these lines is the 'Reference' (or 'Reference1') hence my cartridge is the 4mV 'Reference Reference1'.  The top LO is the 'Statement Reference' (or 'Reference1'), which I think is 0.5mV.

The next one down in both lines is called the 'Master' ... I was told that these are simply References which don't meet the high tolerance levels required of the 'Reference'.

Regards,

Andy

No, the difference is the tip.  The tolerance levels pertains to lesser models, which are all shown in pairs.  If you check out Grado site, it clearly states in the last paragraph of the description, the diamond is a diff shape.
http://gradolabs.com/page_cartridges.php?item=da592292ebe461e50bdddba88cff63f5

You can see that Grado posted the specs for the Statement series for these, by mistake?  I believe the Reference series all has HO, and the Statement series has LO.  If you go to the Reference series Sonata and Platinum, the output is 5mV, Once again, the diff is the tip, nude vs bonded.

Go down again to the Prestige series, also in pairs but virtually identical, except for tolerance.  5% of production run meet standards and become Gold, not Silver.  On face value this appears to be BS.  They sell more Gold than Silver, so how can 5% of them be Gold?  I suspect the answer is in production runs, and not individual pairs.  Unless they're in the dark ages, they make HO generators in batches.  Tolerance probably pertains to DC resistance and inductance, being matched to specs and between channels.  But there are differences between pairs with cantilevers, which are interchangeable.  Exactly how tolerance fits in with Woodies, is unknown. All this is conjecture really, but is a plausible explanation IMO. Maybe the HO Woodies  are the cream of the crop, being tested before cantilevers are fixed? 

I suggest a covert operation to find out exactly what's going on.    We could have someone pose as a building inspector to gain access.....

I think Clearaudio copied the Grado playbook with their MM line.  All the generators have identical specs, output, resistance, and inductance.
neo

[jimdgoulding]

BTW, it turns out that I have the Sonata Reference 1 which I've learned is a Statement series model.  And more "wholesome" is a word that applies.

[BaMorin]

BTW, it turns out that I have the Sonata Reference 1 which I've learned is a Statement series model.  And more "wholesome" is a word that applies.

The age of the cart you list would be for the Reference Sonata. The statement seris is very low output.

[jimdgoulding]

Pretty confusing to me but it's HO alright.  Been setting up a Koetsu Black on another table last night and have yet to get a signal but I do have a nice hum.  I think I've forgotten more than I know.  Grrrr.

[BaMorin]

No, the difference is the tip.  The tolerance levels pertains to lesser models, which are all shown in pairs.  If you check out Grado site, it clearly states in the last paragraph of the description, the diamond is a diff shape.
http://gradolabs.com/page_cartridges.php?item=da592292ebe461e50bdddba88cff63f5

You can see that Grado posted the specs for the Statement series for these, by mistake?  I believe the Reference series all has HO, and the Statement series has LO.  If you go to the Reference series Sonata and Platinum, the output is 5mV, Once again, the diff is the tip, nude vs bonded.

Go down again to the Prestige series, also in pairs but virtually identical, except for tolerance.  5% of production run meet standards and become Gold, not Silver.  On face value this appears to be BS.  They sell more Gold than Silver, so how can 5% of them be Gold?  I suspect the answer is in production runs, and not individual pairs.  Unless they're in the dark ages, they make HO generators in batches.  Tolerance probably pertains to DC resistance and inductance, being matched to specs and between channels.  But there are differences between pairs with cantilevers, which are interchangeable.  Exactly how tolerance fits in with Woodies, is unknown. All this is conjecture really, but is a plausible explanation IMO. Maybe the HO Woodies  are the cream of the crop, being tested before cantilevers are fixed? 

I suggest a covert operation to find out exactly what's going on.    We could have someone pose as a building inspector to gain access.....

I think Clearaudio copied the Grado playbook with their MM line.  All the generators have identical specs, output, resistance, and inductance.
neo

Just a quick Note Neo. The Sonata diamond is a different cut than the Platinum. The Platinum (the one I owned for a brief time) has a diamond cut just like the Gold diamond. 7 x 2 bonded eliptical. Grado still calls the diamond on the Sonata "elliptical" but it is cut different than the Gold/Platinum.
Again, the cut of the diamond can be seen on DaveyW's web site

[neobop]

Hi Marc,
I was just going by the web site: "The Platinum model uses Grado's specially designed elliptical diamond mounted on a brass bushing, and the Sonata model uses Grado's specially designed nude elliptical diamond."

I assumed that the Platinum uses the same tip as the Prestige series?  Is there a difference in cut like .3 x .7 vs .2 x .7 ?   

I haven't been to Davey's site in awhile.  I'll have to take a look, maybe he has some new carts since I last visited. 

David Dlaloum has an interesting site with a different variety of carts.  I haven't been there for awhile either. 
https://sites.google.com/site/zevaudio/

I think the best vocal rendition I've heard was with an old TLZ.  I can't say exactly why, but there was definitely some magic. 
neo

[BaMorin]

Hi Marc,
I was just going by the web site: "The Platinum model uses Grado's specially designed elliptical diamond mounted on a brass bushing, and the Sonata model uses Grado's specially designed nude elliptical diamond."

I assumed that the Platinum uses the same tip as the Prestige series?  Is there a difference in cut like .3 x .7 vs .2 x .7 ?   

I haven't been to Davey's site in awhile.  I'll have to take a look, maybe he has some new carts since I last visited. 

David Dlaloum has an interesting site with a different variety of carts.  I haven't been there for awhile either. 
https://sites.google.com/site/zevaudio/

I think the best vocal rendition I've heard was with an old TLZ.  I can't say exactly why, but there was definitely some magic. 
neo

Yeah, the Grado site isn't real clear on the difference in diamond, and diamond cuts. Simply calling most of them "special elliptical"  Years ago with the paperwork that came with the "lab series" carts, aka today the prestige line. They would give a little more info. the bottom most cart came with the basic elliptical 7 X 3
The "improved version" ie +1 as in FTE with 7X3 and FTE+1 came with a 6 X 3. Moving up the line the styli were called "special grado type" then top of the line was called twin-tip.  Confused yet?  The 8MZ, MCZ, TLZ, XTZ on the original paperwork all were called twin-tip as well. The MCZ through XTZ is certainly a different cut than the 8MZ. Again for photo reference, DaveyW has photos of the MCZ stylus.
I remember our conversations about that TLZ you were trying to work out for another member on that other site.  I still think the mass of the arm, and its bearing arrangement is what kept the cart from "WOWing" you outside of the vocals.
In keeping with the vein of this thead topic. I'm in the process of rebuilding an AR TheTurntable with Linn Basik Plus arm. The customer supplied a NOS 8MZ cart. (God only know where he found this) I've got it mounted with the supplied de-coupler. And I have it set as best as I can read, 92deg SRA.  My wife is my critical set of ears on set-up. Her comments after last nights listening session were similar to Jim's and his Sonata. Very detailed, crisp, clean, .........Ah, where's the beef?  Not lacking any bass response, but that extra detail of whole note.  Tonight the decoupler comes off to see if that's it. if not, I'll move the SRA and see.

[neobop]

I just took a look at the needle shots on Davey's site. Very interesting, as much as one can tell. What struck me the most was diamond quality.  The MCZ stylus is a beauty, real centerfold material.  Diamond quality and polish look first rate. That tip should last much longer (all else being equal) as one of the dark, crude looking ones. But lighting looks different between pics, so it's not really possible to make a direct comparison. The MCZ is back-lit, which would show off translucent qualities. The others have a dark background.

Is the 8MZ bonded?  It looks similar to the Gold, maybe a little sharper.  The 8MR looks better. It's hard to tell from one pic.  The Sonata 1 looks like a shibata. A shibata has a different cut on the front and back.  I guess it could be an optical delusion, because we don't even have orientation, but it looks that way.

http://daveyw.edsstuff.org/vinyl/cartridges/mi-cartridges/

IMO, using Fremer's 92 method is impractical and will come out badly for most people. I noticed that he uses a CD to set the SRA. This will put the actual setting a little less than 92.  If one can't hear the difference (Roy Gandy), you're better off using 91. Really!  Especially if you use a record to measure. It amazes me that some people say they can't hear it.

I'm not sure what's going on with the cart coupler, but what you hear is it. If the music lacks body on a familiar system, then it's probably too high. It seems to me a Grado will always have bass and that might not be the right thing to listen for.  A variety of types of music also helps. I tend to use instrumentals and piano music. That's what I listen to mostly anyway, but guitars and drums with cymbals should work.  The thing is if it's too high, on some records it will just sound a little thin and on others it might sound strident.  IMD is much harder to take when you're modulating (synthesizing) high frequencies.  That's what you're doing.
In setting up a table, arm height and alignment is an evolving process of nailing one, then checking the other.
neo

[BaMorin]

Hi Neo,  Yes, the new (re-issue) of the 8MZ is a bonded stylus. The photo on DaveyW's site doesn't show the diamond under ideal lighting conditions to show the clarity of the actual reading faces. Under scope, the cuts on the 8MZ and (orignal) Gold look very similar although the total size of the diamond and bond look a lot smaller (guessing 25-30% by my eyes).  Straight down view of the Sonata-1 and MCZ stylus under scope, and then critical focus scan from very point to well past the reading area show them to be very similar/same. Again except for overall size of the rock itself. The Sonata total size is again to my eyes about 25% less.
The 8MZ being set up at the moment with the decoupler isn't an issue of SRA (I don't think) more likely my guess right now is it changes some arm harmonics. The Linn Basik Plus is a bit microphonic. Not sure if the decoupler is excaberating or reducing, or just changing the frequency area where those microphonics come into play. Right now I would say this cart more resembles an upper range AT cart in presentation of the note.
It's still plenty warm, just not getting the "back of the note" from mid-bass through mid-treble that the upper Grado carts are known for. Using your example of vocals you had from the TLZ.