[DaveC113]

+3

It's simply a matter of diminishing returns. 

Even with unlimited money at that point it's morally criminal not to donate it the less fortunates.

I agree about the diminishing returns part but not necessarily about donating the money....

If it's your hobby and you have the money why not spend it on a good system? I have heard many 6-figure systems and some are pretty amazing... if I had $.25M for a system no doubt there would be a pile of TAD gear in my living room right now.

I don't disagree with using your money to help others but I do think assuming your excess money would be better spent as a donation to charity rather than a purchase of an item is questionable...

Or at the very least expensive luxury goods provide a mechanism for transferring wealth from the ultra rich to the creative classes. 

[PRELUDE]

For me the biggest ripoff would be the name itself [HIGH END]
It gives a lot of opportunities to manufactures to over charge the customers and reviewers to make living by lying in their writings.
Anything in this world that we live in has a good and bad points but what kinds of hobby is this that bad does not exist? 
For example if you look at the automobile industries, Range rover is a very good and expensive car but is not reliable at all. They break down and it is expensive to fix and car magazines have no problem to say that.
Back to HIGH END, When was the last time that you have read a bad review about any speaker that cost more then $10k?
Keep in mind that Range rover cost $90k and more.
One time a friend took me to the dealer to buy a speaker and when we walked in, they had this X speaker that was showing the crossover inside the box. My friend who had no clue that what the horrible thing crossover could be, told me that this speaker must be very good that they show the inside. I smiled and told him I would like to see no crossover inside the box then it would be good. Make a long story short, I end up to fight with them and we left.
If you look at the audio manufactures and dealers and you think that they try to give you the performance without making the most profit out of you then you are wrong most likely.
It just reminds me the pharmaceutical and vitamin B17.
Here is a good read out and slightly off the topic. 
http://www.1cure4cancer.com/

[Guy 13]

Hi all.
I hate to say that, but there are not rip off.
If you want and can afford to pay 115 USD for a fuse,
That's O.K. with me.
If you can't  or don't want to pay 115 USD for a small fuse
that cost no more than 5 USD to produce, that's still O.K.
I have money you don't know what to do with it. That's O.K.
The retailler makes 200 -500 - 1000% mark up. That's O.K too.
You are sure smarter and more honest than those two,
well that's super O.K. with me.
Those over price thinga are to make money,
lots of it, and it will fatter the alter ego of the rich
that might have a complex of infiriority.
Hopefully, we the Audio Circle members know better
than buying a 115 USD fuse or 5,000 USD speaker cable
or 150,000 USD turn table.
One thing is sure, if you pay double the price,
you never get double the quality
and that applies to most of the consumer stuff.
Agree or not, that's my opinon.
Now you can jump on my back and tear me to pieces...
The way IO wrote this, is to test the freedom of speach
on Audio Circle.

Guy 13

[JLM]

I agree about the diminishing returns part but not necessarily about donating the money....

If it's your hobby and you have the money why not spend it on a good system? I have heard many 6-figure systems and some are pretty amazing... if I had $.25M for a system no doubt there would be a pile of TAD gear in my living room right now.

I don't disagree with using your money to help others but I do think assuming your excess money would be better spent as a donation to charity rather than a purchase of an item is questionable...

Or at the very least expensive luxury goods provide a mechanism for transferring wealth from the ultra rich to the creative classes. 

Friend, I won't get into an ethics debate with you, but perhaps you need a larger perspective.

[Guy 13]

Friend, I won't get into an ethics debate with you, but perhaps you need a larger perspective.

Hi JLM
I would like to read what you think about this topic.
I know way with words.
Well, I know my words wont make you change your mind.
Too bad...

Guy 13

[Photon46]

Friend, I won't get into an ethics debate with you, but perhaps you need a larger perspective.

Agreed. One of the reasons that one can purchase components at reasonable price points which perform at stellar heights is because of trickle down technology used in high priced components. For example, do we think the KEF Ls50 would be available for $1500 if they hadn't done the engineering groundwork in their $35,000 speakers first? Scan-speak has spent forty years applying lessons learned in high priced speakers to develop ever better lower priced speakers. If it weren't for this constant transfer of technology at different price points, we couldn't buy a $2500 Fritzspeaker, Salk, etc. that sounds as good as it does.

Additionally, it is naiveté to assume that wealthy people should make their expenditures in a manner that those who are not their financial peers find acceptable. It's a matter of perspective that has a sliding scale, it's not for any one of us to judge lest we be judged ourselves. I'm sure that to a starving Indian kid in the slums of Mumbai, the thought of having $10,000 to spend on an entire hi-fi system is likely to seem a financial extravagance. At the other end of the scale, a Silicon Valley corporate CEO is not going to write a check to their favorite charity for x number of dollars more than they normally would and forgo buying that component they want.

[JLM]

Ironic that these latest arguments get made in a "Cheap and Cheerful" discussion circle.   

[srb]

It doesn't really make sense that the topic itself is in the Cheap and Cheerful HiFi circle.

Steve

[DaveC113]

Friend, I won't get into an ethics debate with you, but perhaps you need a larger perspective.

You could say that about everyone besides god himslef, lol...

A debate does not need to happen, but I may not be as naive as you think.... I have worked for charitable organizations before and I do not believe they are necessarily the best way to help for several reasons I won't get into. But, if you think you can just give cash away and have it turn out like you're thinking it will, you may be the one who needs a larger perspective.

[PRELUDE]

Ironic that these latest arguments get made in a "Cheap and Cheerful" discussion circle.   

Interesting, I never knew that but hardly I could imagine that we are in a "Cheap and Cheerful" circle because it does not make sense.
Then everything would be ripoff now.
One thing I learned  by helping friends and neighbors with my own DIY knowledge over the years is, these type of people who are seriously belong cheep and cheerful, are people who have taste for caviar but has a budget for McDonald.
We are taking about over priced for no reason not cheap.
 

[Letitroll98]

It doesn't really make sense that the topic itself is in the Cheap and Cheerful HiFi circle.

Steve

Yeah, we've let this one run on for a while now.  It sort of died a natural death and then got resurrected for some reason.  It bounces around here for no particular reason and seems to have no purpose except as a sounding board for those who have one issue or another to beat into submission.  As long as it remains civil it will stay out of the wastebin as we're allowed to discuss things and there really is no other circle it belongs in any more than where it's at. 

That being said, we really need to stay on topic here with "What's the biggest rip-off in high end audio??" with a tie to C&C components.  We've been through cables, preamps, DBT, DACs, etc.  I think we've skipped amps which is strange because we have several threads on $11 killer amps and the like.  Are mega expensive discrete class A and AB amps going the way of the dodo because of the improvements being made in these very inexpensive class D and T amps?

[mhconley]

I think both the thread topic (biggest rip-off in high end audio) and the forum name (cheap and cheerful hi-fi) are very subjective...

My 79 year old father would say that high end audio in and of itself is a rip-off while I disagree.  I consider my system to be cheap and cheerful hi-fi even though I have approximately $8,800 invested in it.  The component MSRPs total close to $19,200.  So it's really all in the pocketbook of the beholder.

For some an $85,000 pair of Pass Labs XS 300 amplifiers or a $140,000 pair of Von Schweikert VR-100XS speakers are rip-offs; for others they are affordable state-of-the-art.  Same can be said for a $300 Pioneer receiver and an $800 pair of Klipsch or JBL speakers.

I personally think anything sold by Machina Dynamica or Coconut Audio are complete rip-offs but then again I have never tried their products.  I pay for UP-OCC wire and cables while others call them a rip-off.  Whatever...  If it's not a rip-off to you then be happy.  If it is then move on.

Martin

[Diamond Dog]

So the take-away from the last 20 or so posts is now that no-one should strive to upgrade beyond a certain point because it would be unethical? Are they selling hair-shirts on the home page with the Audiocircle logo on them yet? And who says that people who spend substantial amounts on their hi-fi don't also donate to charities or do volunteer work or whatever? I do these things.

I have multiple components in my system which individually cross the arbitrary ethical line set up here. My system certainly has crossed that line. And this makes my ethics questionable according to some here? Y'all should have stopped at inferring that people who buy components you consider to be too expensive are addle-minded or have more money than brains. But nooooooo.... Now people who buy top-drawer components are morally inferior to the ones who don't / can't? That's your position? Really ? Working hard and saving towards a goal and then enjoying the fruits of my labours is now considered degeneracy? Good to know. Sorry to have offended anyone's moral sensitivities by building a nice stereo system.

Unbelievable... and no, you do not want to get into an ethical debate with me. And I am not a prophet but I can foresee that getting into a discussion regarding who's perspective could benefit from a little broadening would probably not be a good idea either.

D.D.

[srb]

I think both the thread topic (biggest rip-off in high end audio) and the forum name (cheap and cheerful hi-fi) are very subjective...

I consider my system to be cheap and cheerful hi-fi even though I have approximately $8,800 invested in it.

While the topic may be subjective, there's nothing subjective about Audiocircle's Cheap and Cheerful HiFi circle name.  The guidelines state $1000 +/- 20% for a complete system.

Steve

[mhconley]

While the topic may be subjective, there's nothing subjective about Audiocircle's Cheap and Cheerful HiFi circle name.  The guidelines state $1000 +/- 20% for a complete system.

Steve

I missed the guidelines.  Thanks...

Glad I named my system "my take on cheap & cheerful". 

Martin

[jarcher]

It would help to better define how folks want to define "rip-off" as it relates to high end audio products. 

Seems to some the potential enjoyment / value derived from products beyond a certain $ amount would be the definition, perhaps even regardless of the cost of production (parts / labor / R&D / marketing / etc).  By which definition say a Bugatti Veyron @ +$1 million might be an example, despite supposedly each being sold at a loss.  I.e. No car can give +$1 million's worth of utility / enjoyment vs an alternative costing a fraction of that. And I guess something can be said about that - though that utility / enjoyment value I suppose is relative to the size of your bank roll. 

But to me a "rip off" implies that something is substantially over-priced in relationship to the cost of production as mentioned above, and therefore there's the feel of fraud / deception in the pricing.  That is, when the retail price is many multiples of what the manufacturer had to expend on parts / labor / R&D, marketing, etc.  Sure - the market will ultimately determine supply / demand & pricing : but it's still fair to call something a "rip off" by those standards.

To me it seems that the most common offenders are many headphones (particularly in-ear monitors), phono cartridges, and cables (particularly HDMI cables). Not all, but many in relationship to other categories.   There are a lot of other accessories & tweaks that might be included, but I think the above three cover the largest segments. 

Assuming other production costs are relatively low, I know plenty of R&D money can got into these items - although that $ can often be spread out across various models / products.  I just can't understand +$500 in-ear-monitors that are 90% the same as their substanially cheaper cousins - and I'm not talking about ones personally molded to your ear. And yes, some cartridges are hand made in minimal #'s by Japanese gnomes in some hut at the top of Mt Fuji or whatever….but take even a popular Ortofon 2M series cartridge that can run $100 or over $700 mainly depending on the stylus and not much else.  And I'm a believer in decent cabling, though with HDMI cables I've tried everything from $3 mono price to $160 a meter Wireworld & not seen a difference. 

I guess that what I'm trying to say is with the above categories it seems retail pricing is dictated more by marketing than production costs, and the pricing differences between the entry level & top of the line product seems all out of whack with production costs.  E.g does an Ortofon 2M Black really cost more than 7 times to produce vs a 2M Red, even if it is produced in smaller quantities? I know the ol law of diminishing returns in high-end audio - and that manufacturers need for marketing purposes to differentiate between their offerings.  Guess that's why I don't swing towards "top of the line" in these categories as I don't see the value.

If we have to point fingers, headphone / IEMs, phono cartridges & cables are where I would point fingers at….. 

[DS-21]

So the take-away from the last 20 or so posts is now that no-one should strive to upgrade beyond a certain point because it would be unethical?

I don't see much sense in talking about ethics and setting price-points. Ethics comes in more when talking about performance claims.

If a seller using sonic difference as a selling point/performance claim for a product, and a sonic difference between that product and others of its type has not been reliably determined to actually exist in a bias-controlled subjective listening test, then the seller is acting unethically. If the seller then goes on to deny the power of bias-controlled listening, then the seller is cheap, feckless con person who should be derided by people capable of rational thought. It doesn't really matter whether the product in question costs a nickel or a half-mil, and if it's something obviously stupid such as a fuse or a hunk of wire, or if it's a more complicated device.

[Letitroll98]

How does one identify these "people capable of rational thought"?  Is there some kind of test that we can use?  One that can divine the difference between those who only appear to think rationally, and post on this forum quite often, and those such as yourself who obviously have something over the everyday, run of the mill, poster on AC.

Seriously DS, you really need to give it a rest.  Just state that you think cables and fuses are the biggest rip off and move on.  You are allowed to have an opinion and voice it, no one is interested in your platitudes about your superior logic.  Performance claims are made for speakers all the time.  They have measurable differences and verifiable sonic differences and no one can tell you for certain which measurements are directly linked to the sonic differences, at least with any consensus of agreement.  Nor can controlled listening reliably tell you which speaker is best (otherwise only one speaker in each price range would be sold).  Are you then saying all speakers are snake oil and rip offs?  If not, then is it turntables or CDPs that have everyone fooled.  If not them, then it must be amplifiers.  If not amps, then where do you draw the line?  As in the "people capable of rational thought" test, if there is no consensus on the viability of any particular measurement technique to guarantee the superiority of any one audio component, then you cannot categorically dismiss any set of components as failures or ripoffs.  You can state an opinion based on listening.     

[JLM]

Very sorry to all if I touched a tender nerve.  My Dad passed yesterday and I probably should keep my opinions to myself for a while.

But in recent years as my disposable income has grown a bit I've struggled with how much to spend on audio in a needy world, so I've been getting more frugal.  Thankfully it seems that more lower cost audio products are being introduced all the time that frankly satisfy me more than typical over-hyped 'mega' gear, hence the value of this circle to me.

And no Dave, I'm not so innocent to believe that throwing money at a problem always works.

[SteveFord]

Sorry to hear about your dad, that's a difficult time to get through.