Some good boxing matches coming up . .

dB Cooper · « **Reply #220 on:** 21 Sep 2012, 12:22 am »

Imagine paying for a PPV as a Chavez fan, or worse, an airplane trip, hotel, and live venue ticket, and finding out you shelled out $$$$ to watch a non-effort by a pot smoking party boy. He is a punk. I could care less what he does between fights, but in training, you gotta give 100%.

Apparently the writer for secondsout.com was partying with Junior:

BTW, I wish they would go back to same day weigh ins, so you know the fighters are actually in the same weight division. Chavez reportedly might have weighed as much as 180 lbs... for a middleweight fight. If true, that won't even make light heavyweight. It favors fighters who have the physiology to gain weight rapidly by dehydrating and rehydrating quickly. Arturo Gatti did this his whole career. It should stop.

jackman · « **Reply #221 on:** 21 Sep 2012, 12:51 am »

I think you are being too hard on Chavez. It was a full fight for 11 rounds but he never quit, despite being dominated for most of the fight. He had enough skill to put Sergio on his ass and was one punch away from finishing him. Chavez is a decent puncher and was a heavy underdog for the fight.

Forget about what he weighs on fight day, he has never missed weight. He's a good young fighter with no armature background and he stood toe to toe with Martinez, a very good fighter, and he never quit. If he gets his stuff together , he can be a solid fighter , maybe even a champion. I'm not saying its going to happen but I don't think he's a punk. Maybe a stoner...

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #222 on:** 21 Sep 2012, 02:07 am »

Agreed, Jackman, he has the material and the pedigree. When he gets down to business I think we can expect him to have a belt. But, the question is why hasn't he. Immature? I DO admire the way Martinez spun him like a top. He only got clocked cause he was in Chavez's range. Probably getting tired he was. Who wouldn't with his style. I'm glad he survived. He won the fight all night. Three cheers for the littler, older champion. Chavez may go to work now.

django11 · « **Reply #223 on:** 21 Sep 2012, 02:26 am »

Chavez usually puts on 20 lbs after weigh in.

django11 · « **Reply #224 on:** 21 Sep 2012, 11:52 am »

I have been reading Doug Fischer ( Ring Magazine )for a number of years and respect his opinion a lot. In the mailbag this week he gives his opinion of Canelo vs Golovkin:"Can Alvarez-Golovkin happen next year? Yeah, I suppose it’s possible. Will it happen – ever? HELL no! Alvarez and his team are more familiar with GGG than most boxing people having shared two camps with the iron man from Kazakhstan and having sparred numerous 4-minute rounds with the beast in the high altitude of Big Bear, Calif. I witnessed Golovkin (who was clearly holding back) rock a headgear-clad Canelo with big gloves. The redhead can make a lot more money fighting worthy world-class junior middleweights who aren’t half as dangerous as GGG."

In answer to my question of how he thinks Golovkin would do against Chavez-Martinez-Canelo: "I remember the harsh backlash I got when somebody asked me how I thought a then-untested Edwin Valero would fare against the best 130 pounders of the early-to-mid-2000s (including Erik Morales) years ago, so I know my answer to your question is going to get me in trouble with some fans but to be honest I think Golovkin wears down all three Latino idols to late stoppages."

Mind you Dougie is wrong almost as often as me...

An afterthought: Edwin Valero(27-0 -27 ko) trained himself and was into all kind of excess (witness his tragic end) but still managed to flatten his opposition. Everytime I see Antonio DeMarco ko someone I remember the terrible beat down he took before quitting in Valero's last fight. If Golovkin is indeed in Valero's league we should witness some nasty KOs.

jackman · « **Reply #225 on:** 21 Sep 2012, 01:11 pm »

Excellent observations! I agree that GGG would beat and possibly knock out all three if those guys and I strongly suspect you will never see any of them agree to fight him. The boxing public will pay to see the three Latin fighters fight lesser opponents or each other.

Canelo is a tough young kid and a rising star in the division. He can milk that for few years. Martinez talks a good game but he couldn't knock out a stoned Chavez and was dropped by him in the 12th round of their fight. And he is getting long in thr tooth. Chavez is lazy, apparently into weed, and not committed to becoming a champion. I suspect Canelo will be the most likely candidate to fight GGG...five years from now when GGG's skills have diminished.

This is what sucks about boxing. Top name guys rarely fight the most talented opponents. Talented guys with big names can hand pick their opponents and guys like GGG are often avoided. This has always existed but its gotten worse in recent years. When will boxing fans stay home and stop shelling out cash to see guys like Floyd fight guys who have zero chance of beating him? Do we really need a JMM Pacman 4?

I'm not going to comment on any meaningless fight. I'm not going to watch them or support them in any way. It needs to end. Boxing is becoming a farce.

jackman · « **Reply #226 on:** 21 Sep 2012, 01:27 pm »

PS - Edwin Valero was an exciting fighter but don't confuse his puffed up record with greatness. He fought C level talent and while aggressive, he lacked the skills to even be mentioned in the same sentence as Pacquiao, Barrera, Morales, etc. those guys would have murdered him. He was a doped up thug who made Floyd look like a model citizen.

Every good puncher looks great against hand picked lesser opponents. It's a different story when they step into the ring with flights who know how to fight. Remember James The Beast Mugabe? He looked unstoppable until Hagler introduced him to the canvas. The same would have happened to this bum. Any guy who beats up women is a bum in my book. Good riddance.

fredgarvin · « **Reply #227 on:** 21 Sep 2012, 05:50 pm »

Quote

This is what sucks about boxing. Top name guys rarely fight the most talented opponents

Sergio Martinez has been fighting anyone he can get in the ring, and that includes the best of his division, (best behind him) and has beaten them.

You are over rating Chavez. He couldn't put away Martinez, even after that lucky shot, because Martinez has the will to win and a great chin.

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #228 on:** 21 Sep 2012, 06:33 pm »

Mention of Barrera reminds me of the fight he had with Britian's Prince whathamacallit and destoyed that arrogant little chump. Talk about bursting somebody's bubble. The first Barrera/Morales match is the hardest fought match I have ever seen except for that Diego Corrales fight in Sacramento.

jackman · « **Reply #229 on:** 21 Sep 2012, 07:52 pm »

Quote from: jimdgoulding on 21 Sep 2012, 06:33 pm

Mention of Barrera reminds me of the fight he had with Britian's Prince whathamacallit and destoyed that arrogant little chump. Talk about bursting somebody's bubble. The first Barrera/Morales match is the hardest fought match I have ever seen except for that Diego Corrales fight in Sacramento.

Prince Nassim Hamed! A little twerpy punk with a big mouth. Berrera was quick to shut that guy up and literally knock him out of boxing. Thankfully, Hamed didn't die in an accident or kill himself before getting his scrawny ass kicked because internet boards would be speculating how he would have beaten Manny, JMM or Berrera. Any one of those guys, on his worst day, would have dusted off Hamed without blinking an eye. Berrera got to him first! The same would be true of Valero, I suspect. He never fought anyone with skills and put together a nice highlight reel of KO's. The "Prince" had some nice KO's and there was a lot of hype around him, especially in England.

Regarding Sergio, I think he's a good fighter, but I don't think he has beat enough solid opposition to qualify as "great". Who has he beaten? He has at least 25 fights in his native Argentina against taxi cab drivers and sparing partners. Of his 50 wins, I can only recognize 4 names, two of them beat or fought him to a draw (Paul Williams and Kermit Cintron) and the other is Kelly Pavlik who is a decent but not great fighter who Sergio beat by decision. He defeated Williams in the rematch and recently fought 12 rounds with a stoned Chavez Jr (a fight in which he was dropped in the final round). Here are a list of Sergio's fights (scroll down):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergio_Gabriel_Mart%C3%ADnez

I'm glad he beat Chavez because Sergio earned it but let's see how this guy does against better opposition like GGG or even Canelo Alvarez. Martinez might be too crafty for the young Canelo, and I've never seen Canelo against a good opponent in his prime. He did knock out Shane Mosley, but Shane doesn't appear to have too much tread on the tires. Golovkin is also relatively unknown and has never faced top level competition (they say top guys are avoiding him). He has a great amature background and looks very good against the guys he has fought, but he needs to beat better competition before we know how good he really is.

Lastly, I read today that Manny has accepted Floyd's terms and will take a 55-45% split to fight him. This would be a great fight because I honstly don't know if Manny can beat Floyd these days and vice versa. I'm not sure if Manny has the speed and skill to catch Floyd and I would like to see Floyd's reaction if he gets caught with a punch. This could be a SUPER fight and I suspect it will happen next year. If it doesn't (or if Manny loses to JMM and the interest isn't there for a big money fight), we will have to turn our attention to the Middleweight neighborhood (including light and super). Maybe Floyd can put together a fight against Martinez. That would actually be a fun matchup.

django11 · « **Reply #230 on:** 21 Sep 2012, 08:00 pm »

Quote from: jackman on 21 Sep 2012, 01:27 pm

PS - Edwin Valero was an exciting fighter but don't confuse his puffed up record with greatness. He fought C level talent and while aggressive, he lacked the skills to even be mentioned in the same sentence as Pacquiao, Barrera, Morales, etc. those guys would have murdered him. He was a doped up thug who made Floyd look like a model citizen.

Every good puncher looks great against hand picked lesser opponents. It's a different story when they step into the ring with flights who know how to fight. Remember James The Beast Mugabe? He looked unstoppable until Hagler introduced him to the canvas. The same would have happened to this bum. Any guy who beats up women is a bum in my book. Good riddance.

His conflicted life is another story. But about he rest I couldn't disagree more. Difficult to predict if he would have been great but he had the raw talent. Antonio DeMarco .now rated #1 by Ring Magazine at lightweight (with the champ position empty)was utterly destroyed by Valero. He won every round and made a proud Mexican quit on his stool. 7 title defenses and 7 KOs. He did this without a trainer! This video showed his skill, even under trained by himself :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZtvnVfomAM&feature=relmfu

About his opposition, Valero couldn't get licensed or get fights in the States for a number of years which limited his marketability and ability to get name opponents.
Lastly, there is no shame in my view in getting KOd by Marvin Hagler...

jackman · « **Reply #231 on:** 21 Sep 2012, 09:45 pm »

That's not my point. Haggler was my favorite fighter at the time. My point was, you never know how good a fighter is until he steps in against top tier talent. Mugabe looked unstoppable against pure sluggers and guys with less skills. He was knocking everybody out. My friends were all sure he was going to knock out Hagler. They couldnt have been more wrong. When Marvin rocked him, he didn't even know how to clinch. It was a brutal but relatively easy fight for Hagler. One dimensional fighters/punchers always look good until they face a guy who knows how to fight. A boxer.

Manny, JMM. Barrera, and a number of fighters in his class would have easily destroyed Valero, IMO. Valero reminds me of Ricardo Mayorga. A tough guy who looked really good against lesser opponents. The one difference is Mayorga fought very stiff competition. He fought De La Hoya, Trinidad, Vernon Forest, Cotto, Mosley, a young Vargas, etc. he even beat Vargas and gave some of these guys a good fight. Mayorga was a street fighter with very little technical boxing skill and a big heard, big punch. That can get you only so far, especially at the lighter weights.

We will never know how good Valero would have been but I suspect he was somewhere south of Prince Naseem. The Prince fought and beat some decent fighters including Kevin Kelly and Wayne Mccullugh (sp?) before he was brought down to earth by a guy who was a world class fighter, Berrera. Before that fight, Naseem looked unstoppable with some YouTube quality knockouts, just like Valero. Hamed even wore the Lineal Featherweight title and defended it several times. It's a shame Valero never was allowed in the US to fight but it doesn't change the fact that he never fought any substantial fighters in the division. He also didn't have any defense and was very raw. Mayorga was a similar fighter and he never could beat the best in his class. Guys like this come around and look great until they get in the ring with a real fighter. Hamed retired with a record of 36-1, with 29 KO's. That's a good record on paper, but he'll never be considered among the greats. He just looked good against lesser guys.

django11 · « **Reply #232 on:** 22 Sep 2012, 12:39 am »

I know big punchers hit a wall. But I think Valero was more than just a big puncher. Just watching the DeMarco fight that I posted I disagree with your assessment of Valero. So did the Showtime commentators who were surprised by Valero's skill. He is nothing like Mayorga. I repeat that Valero basically trained himself during a stretch of 7 defenses so of course he was not looking that polished. But he had talent to go along with his power. Wether or not he would have realized his potential we will never know

Here is another opinion:
"Valero trained with respected veteran trainer Ken Adams for 14 months prior to his fight with Pitalua in Austin, Texas. The former U.S. Olympic coach worked on refining Valero’s offensive technique, such as pivoting his hips and feet with each shot and turning his punches over, the southpaw’s vicious right hook in particular [Valero and Adams parted ways because] “ Valero wants a mitt man,” said Adams. “He doesn’t want a trainer. He wants somebody to give him 10 rounds of mitt work every day and he don’t want to listen to anybody who’s trying to teach him something. That’s why we split up.” (...)Valero says he dreams of fighting lightweight champ Juan Manuel Marquez and the sport’s top 140-pound fighters on his way to an eventual welterweight showdown with Manny Pacquiao, but while his freakish power will overwhelm most opponents, experts agree that it’s not enough to beat elite fighters like Marquez, Timothy Bradley or Pacquiao.

“Edwin might wake up one day and realize that he needs a real trainer to be at his best, and hopefully it won’t be too late because time is running out,” Adams said. “It might be too late now. He might have wasted too much time trying to call all the shots in the gym instead of learning his craft.

“I hate to say it because he was such a great prospect. I thought he was the guy to beat Pacquiao.”.

django11 · « **Reply #233 on:** 22 Sep 2012, 12:53 am »

And my point about there being no shame in losing to Hagler is that real fighters take challenges (unlike Mayweather) and sometimes lose even by KO.

jackman · « **Reply #234 on:** 22 Sep 2012, 01:04 am »

We will never know how good this guy would have been. It's too bad he never fought JMM or any top fighters of that era. Do you remember Manny when he first started out? He was a high energy fighter who had poor defense, was a one armed fighter who survived on natural ability. He never became the elite fighter he eventually became until he committed himself to learning how to fight. We will never know if Valero would have found the will and discipline to committ himself to learning how to be a complete fighter. Judging by his character and actions, it appeared he was more interested in living the life of a violent coke snoring thug who eventually murdered his often battered wife, before taking his own life. I wish he would have lived long enough to receive the type of beating he frequently inflicted upon his wife and many of the innocent people he encountered during his lifetime.

dB Cooper · « **Reply #235 on:** 22 Sep 2012, 01:13 pm »

Quote from: jackman on 22 Sep 2012, 01:04 am

I wish he would have lived long enough to receive the type of beating he frequently inflicted upon his wife and many of the innocent people he encountered during his lifetime.

Hear hear. The only thing worse than a wife beater is a wife beater that is a professional prize fighter. Remember Tony Ayala? Another d-bag who had big talent but unfortunately had a personality defect that he felt like more of a man when he beat up (and in his case, raped) women.

django11 · « **Reply #236 on:** 22 Sep 2012, 01:54 pm »

I don't really want to delve into his personal life but as it keeps coming back here is my opinion. Having had substance abuse issues myself I have a more nuanced view of the subject. I also find it more than a bit strange that in the self proclaimed "greatest christian nation on Earth" there is always more emphasis on punishment than redemption... Certainly I am not making a defense of wife beating. But I see in his hanging himself some remorse and I see the whole situation as tragic, sad and unnecessary and don't feel a need that Valero be further punished. He received the ultimate punishment in my view: alone in his cell thinking "my god what have I done" he takes his own life. Again this is my opinion .

But I digress, back to boxing

...

jackman · « **Reply #237 on:** 22 Sep 2012, 02:03 pm »

I have to disagree. This guy not only beat up his wife, severely, he brutally murdered her. Committing suicide was the only favor he ever did to society. I don't care if people want to do drugs but beating up and killing people is a different matter. I'm glad he's dead.

satfrat · « **Reply #238 on:** 22 Sep 2012, 09:08 pm »

FWIW, tonight at 9:30pm est, HBO will be showing a repeat of the Julio Cesar Chavez vs. Sergio Gabriel Martinez fight for those of us who were unwilling (or unable) to PPV.

Cheers,
Robin

mjosef · « **Reply #239 on:** 27 Sep 2012, 03:39 am »

Chavez is one tough dude, he took a licking and just kept on coming. Gotta respect that, unlike Dawson, he didn't quit and almost had Martinez down for the 10 in the 12th.
I'd like to see a rematch...imagine CHavez really dedicating himself to the 2-3 month training routine, and Martinez whom always seem to be even better the second time around, now that would be a helluva fight.