[rw@cn]

Dave:

Howard Cosell would have a hard time with this crowd, so don't fret my friend.   I especially loved the Asylum expat comment. Inference, this is our beach and youi're not welcome, nice!

Jim

Sorry that wasn't my inference. Davey has been here a lot longer than I. It is just that his posts are reminisence (IMO) of the tone of many AA posts. They are often harsh and worse.

He recommends that I should ignore his posts. Why? AudioCircle prides itself on being a site of civil discourse. Perhaps I am too sensitive.

[rw@cn]

If my opinion is too harsh, you can always ignore it.    I'm not harsh, I just don't tolerate any BS. 

Anyways, I'm not sure why this particular one is too harsh.  Subjective evaluations are (by definition) meaningless to anyone other than the person who did the listening.  A subjective opinion is beyond a basis of general discussion....at least initially.

Over time, folks who have listened to many similar systems (or equipment) can more easily compare opinions (so to speak) and possibly form the baseline where one's opinion might be accepted by the other without a subjective evaluation.....or vice versa.  I can think of a grand total of about three people who's opinion I would accept without first-hand knowledge.  (And none of them are on this forum.) 

But as a general rule, I can't take on faith anyone's opinion on the sound of a system unless I've experienced it myself.

Is that a concept that's too difficult to understand?

Cheers,

Dave.

Here is my take on your position. If I am wrong, please accept my apologies.

* Your tolerance level of anything subjective is rather low.
* If you don't know me, my opinions (which may be factual and not subjective) are worthless.

I think I understand your positions very well.

[Davey]

Absolutely correct on both counts.  Does that make me UN-"civil"??   C'mon. 

Cheers,

Dave.

[Davey]

If anything, just the opposite of that.
Any passive crossover, regardless of the toplogy is easier to implement when the impedance is constant (flat). A highly reactive impedance can be compensated for, but when the impedance is flat (not reactive) then the engineers work is so much easier. A flat impedance allows the transfer function to look and perform just like it does in textbook formulas.

So then, is there a meaningful benefit to using a series (vice parallel) crossover in Magnepan systems, considering the transducer impedances are resistive??  If so, what is the benefit, and if not, why did Magnepan adopt it again on some of these later models?

Cheers,

Dave.

[medium jim]

As I see it, Magnepan has been true to its core values as established by Jim Winey, to bring to the audio world, world class speakers at a blue collar price.  I'm going to guestimate that only about 5 to 10% of those who buy Magnepan's are DIY'ers or will have them modded.  This means that 90 to 95% of their customers like them as they are and what x/o design is immaterial as it is the alluring sound they produce that is the ticket. 

Having said that, it also may that with a series x/o that they will incur less warranty repairs necessitated by bi-amping or otherwise and yet 90% of their core market is unaffected.  I would like to think that the think tank at Magnepan contains several very wise persons and didn't institute changes without forethought.

Those who want to modify the newer models will do so at the price of their warranties, that is life.

Much has been said in this thread about amplification, while very important, the forgotten element is preamplification, even the best amp(s) will suffer under the influence of wimpy preamplification. I also believe in build quality as noted by Kevin, maybe that is why my preamp of choice is a 50 year old McIntosh that still does its appointed job flawlessly. 

I will note that my almost 25 year old Maggie's (MG 2.5R's) did have their x/o's upgraded with better caps and inductors before I obtained them and love the begeebers out of them.  They still are passive.  I also have a passive high pass x/o setup from the subs to the Maggies that really cleans things up.   

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that with all of the Magnepan users out there, that 99% have unique systems and that the Magnepan's are the center piece of most of these systems.

Jim

[Æ]

So then, is there a meaningful benefit to using a series (vice parallel) crossover in Magnepan systems, considering the transducer impedances are resistive??  If so, what is the benefit, and if not, why did Magnepan adopt it again on some of these later models?

Cheers,

Dave.

My comments were not about series vs. parallel crossovers, my comments were about flat (resistive) impedance vs. reactive (inductive, capacitive) impedance. A flat impedance is easier to work with and easier for an amplifier to drive.
Successful crossovers can be either type, series or parallel, each type having its own virtues. The end result is not whether a particular crossover topology looks better on paper, but how it sounds. If the designer met his goals, then mission accomplished.

[rw@cn]

Absolutely correct on both counts.  Does that make me UN-"civil"??   C'mon. 

Cheers,

Dave.

yes 

[medium jim]

... A flat impedance is easier to work with and easier for an amplifier to drive.
Successful crossovers can be either type, series or parallel, each type having its own virtues. The end result is not whether a particular crossover topology looks better on paper, but how it sounds. If the designer met his goals, then mission accomplished.

That was what I was implying, but without the engineer speak.  Understand, 90% or more of Magnepan users don't care what is under the hood, all we care about is how they sound.   Yes, the inability to bi-amp may be a deterrent to a small percentage as well, it doesn't preclude the end user from doing so with some minor alterations. 

Jim

[macrojack]

Those who want to actively biamp their Magnapans should just tear into them and not worry about losing their warranty. After all, if they are capable of a design which is superior to the original, they don't need support from the know nothings at the factory anyway.

[medium jim]

Those who want to actively biamp their Magnapans should just tear into them and not worry about losing their warranty. After all, if they are capable of a design which is superior to the original, they don't need support from the know nothings at the factory anyway.

Apparently Magnepan knows that only a minority of their customers bi-amp, and or that the cost of warranty repairs for those who do actively bi-amp was just too much to cover and stay profitable without raising their front-end prices

Jim

[Æ]

Those who want to actively biamp their Magnapans should just tear into them and not worry about losing their warranty. After all, if they are capable of a design which is superior to the original, they don't need support from the know nothings at the factory anyway.

One can if one knows how. But hopefully done delicately and not "just tear into them."
Maybe one should wait until the warranty has expired? Are they lifetime warranty?

[macrojack]

I'm sure you're right about that, Jim. Too many audiophiles have ambitions that exceed their understanding. The very reason I don't plunge into DIY. Never had an inclination to putter and I'm way too lazy to learn what I would need to know to get both myself and my equipment past the experience sans injury.

[Davey]

yes 

rw,

I will attempt to be more civil.....but I can't make any guarantees. 

Just for reference, I've never been banned (temporarily or permanently) or given a timeout or given any other punitive "punishment" at any of the many forums (audio and otherwise) I've participated in through the years.  (Knock on wood.)

I think I'm a pretty nice guy actually, but I will stipulate that it's possible some folks might find my no-BS attitude demeanor too much.  Those are my "core values".....what can I say. 


AE,

Yes, I understood your comments were not really about crossovers, per se.  Regarding flat/non-flat impedances....yes, you are correct that these type of planar drivers are easier to work with, crossover-wise.  However, there has been a lot of buzz lately on the reasoning behind preferences for series crossovers in Maggie speakers.  I have my theory on why Magnepan made this decision, but I was polling for some other opinions before I mentioned anything.

Anyways, this is the Planar Circle and we don't have any reactive drivers in this forum....but we do have some reactive posters. 

Cheers,

Dave.

[thunderbrick]

Those who want to actively biamp their Magnapans should just tear into them and not worry about losing their warranty. After all, if they are capable of a design which is superior to the original, they don't need support from the know nothings at the factory* anyway.

I hardly think "know nothings" fits a successful company whose products are so widely admired.

How (or why) can Magnepan POSSIBLY listen to it's core audiopile market when that market spends much of its time arguing with each other.  Would YOU convene a focus group of crabby, obsessive, tinkering old farts whose hearing is gradually going to hell and who rarely agree on much of ANYTHING?  Think the movie "Grumpy Old Men";  I hate to say it (because I AM a grumpy old man), but that's a recipe for distaster.

Now, back to tinkering............

*emphasis added

[Æ]

However, there has been a lot of buzz lately on the reasoning behind preferences for series crossovers in Maggie speakers.  I have my theory on why Magnepan made this decision, but I was polling for some other opinions before I mentioned anything.

So, what's your theory? Or how long do I have to wait for it?

[MaggiesAndCats]

the cost of warranty repairs for those who do actively bi-amp was just too much to cover

Jim - I'm curious as to the warranty repairs Magnepan would be paying when their previous speakers were designed for biamping.

Regards,

Steve

[macrojack]

Brick, ole boy,

Are you gonna make me 'splain everything? The part you chose to put in bold print was my tongue in cheek suggestion that they not try upstaging the Magnapan factory. To me, the assumption that they can readily improve upon decades of skillful, directed and inspired product evolution is foolhardy and presumptuous.

[steve k]

I hardly think "know nothings" fits a successful company whose products are so widely admired. 

How (or why) can Magnepan POSSIBLY listen to it's core audiopile market when that market spends much of its time arguing with each other.  Would YOU convene a focus group of crabby, obsessive, tinkering old farts whose hearing is gradually going to hell and who rarely agree on much of ANYTHING?  Think the movie "Grumpy Old Men";  I hate to say it (because I AM a grumpy old man), but that's a recipe for distaster.

Now, back to tinkering............

*emphasis added

 
Who you callin' "grumpy," grumpy?

Reminds me of the old Monty Python skit--"Oh, you wanted "arguments", this is complaints. Arguments is down the hall. 

[thunderbrick]

Sorry, didn't catch the tongue-in-cheek.   

Mea Culpa!   

[medium jim]

Jim - I'm curious as to the warranty repairs Magnepan would be paying when their previous speakers were designed for biamping.

Regards,

Steve

For one, blown ribbons...