[MaggiesAndCats]

I've only perused a few Magnepan manuals, but they have this in bold letters:

RUPTURED RIBBON ELEMENTS ARE NOT COVERED UNDER THE
WARRANTY.

Regards,

Steve

[medium jim]

Steve:

And you can get around that by calling it a defective ribbon.  I replaced both ribbons in my Maggie's and ordered them via my local dealer and received a warranty on them.  However, I have 2.5's that cannot be bi-amped.

Jim

[Davey]

You can bi-amp 2.5's. 

Dave.

[medium jim]

You can bi-amp 2.5's. 

Dave.

With some surgery....

Jim

P.S. The standard Magnepan warranty is a limited one and is for 3 years, mostly against defects...

[medium jim]

The standard warranty on ribbons/tweeters is one year:

"17. TWEETER REPLACEMENT
Because the foil element in your MG20.1 line source tweeter is only
.00015 inches thick, it is very fragile. Some users will never require a
replacement tweeter. Failure will generally occur from mishandling, or from
improper fusing. Users who frequently push the 3 amp tweeter fuse capacity will
be the most likely to experience early failure. The tweeter has been designed to
be easily replaced, requiring only a screwdriver. The time required should be less
than 30 minutes.
If you have a defective tweeter, you should contact your dealer for a
replacement. Your defective unit will be returned to Magnepan for installation of
a new foil element at a minimal charge to you: there is no charge if it is within the
one-year warranty period that covers the foil element and Magnepan determines
that there is no evidence of abuse."

Jim

[MaggiesAndCats]

Jim,

I guess I'm more dense than usual, but how does biamping put the tweeter at higher risk?

Regards,

Steve

[medium jim]

Jim,

I guess I'm more dense than usual, but how does biamping put the tweeter at higher risk?

Regards,

Steve

It depends on the amp that one uses to bi-amp, too much power or too little (clips) can take out a tweeter, especially if the fuse is bypassed.

Jim

[MaggiesAndCats]

I guess I still don't see how biamping is a higher risk for the tweeter than a single amp.  Just my opinion.  Around here, opinions are like Maggies - we all have at least 2!

Regrads,

Steve

[SteveFord]

Funny, the movie Grumpy Old Men has sprung to mind more than once.
I'm with macrojack; I know that the people who designed the product have the experience, skill and resources that are beyond that of the individual owners.
They may have cost considerations to take into account but that's part of what the core values is all about - keeping the product at a level that is affordable. 

[Davey]

Steve,

The problem with bi-amping is the removal of the series capacitor on the ribbon tweeter.  That capacitor blocks DC and also provides a nominal protection from amplifier turn on/off thumps.  It's a must that when connecting directly to ribbon tweeters for bi-amping the amplifier be extremely well-behaved during turn on/off and in the case of power failures.

Some folks think replacing the series capacitor with a much larger value (much lower F3 frequency) will protect the tweeter adequately.  I don't agree.  It will for steady-state DC but the longer charging time constant can still allow significant deflections of the ribbon from thumps or other possible transients.

I'm talking about ribbon tweeters only.....not "quasi"-ribbon tweeters.  (A much different animal and way more rugged.)

Cheers,

Dave.

[medium jim]

Steve,

The problem with bi-amping is the removal of the series capacitor on the ribbon tweeter.  That capacitor blocks DC and also provides a nominal protection from amplifier turn on/off thumps.  It's a must that when connecting directly to ribbon tweeters for bi-amping the amplifier be extremely well-behaved during turn on/off and in the case of power failures.

Some folks think replacing the series capacitor with a much larger value (much lower F3 frequency) will protect the tweeter adequately.  I don't agree.  It will for steady-state DC but the longer charging time constant can still allow significant deflections of the ribbon from thumps or other possible transients.

I'm talking about ribbon tweeters only.....not "quasi"-ribbon tweeters.  (A much different animal and way more rugged.)

Cheers,

Dave.

Dave:

Thanks for the technical side of the equation as to why Bi-Amping can be hazardous to the True Ribbon Tweeters...

Jim

[MaggiesAndCats]

Dave,

Understood, and a nice explanation.  My question goes back to the original assertion that Magnepan stopped making speakers that are designed to be biamped due to warranty costs.  My MGIII's have an internal XO for the mid and ribbon tweeter which has a capacitor that will provide that thump protection for the ribbon.  I believe all of the Maggies with ribbons prior to the .7's have this internal XO.  Driving the ribbon directly would involve surgery that would void the warranty.  I guess I'm floggin a dead horse here, but I am curious about the XO changes on the new models.  Perhaps when Josh takes his trip to White Bear Lake he can ask Wendell.

Regards,

Steve

[Davey]

Yep, the three-way systems are a different setup.  (Protection built in for the ribbon in the internal crossover.)

I'm not sure there is a warranty angle here.  I'm curious too, but there is much speculation.  Heck, nobody has seen anything official from Magnepan about crossovers for the 1.7 and 3.7.  For all we know, they might not be series. 

Maybe Josh could find out, but he might be sworn to secrecy if he does. 

Cheers,

Dave.

[steve k]

Steve,

The problem with bi-amping is the removal of the series capacitor on the ribbon tweeter.  That capacitor blocks DC and also provides a nominal protection from amplifier turn on/off thumps.  It's a must that when connecting directly to ribbon tweeters for bi-amping the amplifier be extremely well-behaved during turn on/off and in the case of power failures.

Some folks think replacing the series capacitor with a much larger value (much lower F3 frequency) will protect the tweeter adequately.  I don't agree.  It will for steady-state DC but the longer charging time constant can still allow significant deflections of the ribbon from thumps or other possible transients.

I'm talking about ribbon tweeters only.....not "quasi"-ribbon tweeters.  (A much different animal and way more rugged.)

Cheers,

Dave.

I'm not sure I understand. In my biamped IIIA's, I use one stereo amp for the bass drivers and one for the mid/highs so the only difference between this arrangement and the stock arrangement is the bass panel is on its own amp. I still have the outboard passive crossover that splits the mids and highs and the bass is separated out at the active crossover upstream. I'm using a Dahlquist LP-10 which has active control on the bass output but the mids/highs are separated with a single cap.

In this scenario, the ribbons are protected by the passive crossover in the same way as in the stock setup (I've rebuilt the passives outboard of course). I also keep a fuse on the ribbons just for extra protection.

The only way I could see the ribbons being possibly damaged would be in a tri-amp setup where there is a dedicated amp to the ribbons. I've found that the bulk of the load is in the bass panels so this setup allows a beefier amp on the bass panels and a less powerful one on the mids/highs. I've been really happy with this setup for several years now. The dynamics and control over the panels is hard to beat compared to a stock arrangement.
Steve

[josh358]

Apparently Magnepan knows that only a minority of their customers bi-amp, and or that the cost of warranty repairs for those who do actively bi-amp was just too much to cover and stay profitable without raising their front-end prices

Jim

They removed the bi-amping capability because the new crossover design makes it impractical, not because they were concerned about warranty repairs. (What effect would bi amping have on warranty repairs?) OK, hadn't read the later posts when I wrote this, but I think the 3-ways were all designed to prevent you from bypassing the cap. Tri amping is a different issue, you should leave the HPF on the tweeter if you do that (I do know someone who bypasses it -- his amp apparently doesn't make a turn-on thump, and he's comfortable with the risk that something will go awry).

[josh358]

Dave,

Understood, and a nice explanation.  My question goes back to the original assertion that Magnepan stopped making speakers that are designed to be biamped due to warranty costs.  My MGIII's have an internal XO for the mid and ribbon tweeter which has a capacitor that will provide that thump protection for the ribbon.  I believe all of the Maggies with ribbons prior to the .7's have this internal XO.  Driving the ribbon directly would involve surgery that would void the warranty.  I guess I'm floggin a dead horse here, but I am curious about the XO changes on the new models.  Perhaps when Josh takes his trip to White Bear Lake he can ask Wendell.

Regards,

Steve

Sure, that's next week. I do know that Wendell has been quoted as saying that the crossover design came out of the technological requirements of the new design, rather than the other way around. My personal guess is that it has to do with the falling impedance of the supertweeter segment, a first order series crossover maintains constant amplitude response under those circumstances so you don't need a Zoebel network, which would add cost and components that might not fit in a thin panel. But it's just a guess, I still don't know much about the .7's.

[medium jim]

Sure, that's next week. I do know that Wendell has been quoted as saying that the crossover design came out of the technological requirements of the new design, rather than the other way around. My personal guess is that it has to do with the falling impedance of the supertweeter segment, a first order series crossover maintains constant amplitude response under those circumstances so you don't need a Zoebel network, which would add cost and components that might not fit in a thin panel. But it's just a guess, I still don't know much about the .7's.

Josh:

That what I first posted, again, in less technical terms. However, I still have an inkling that they feel that there is a loss of revenue due to repairs under factory warranty.  Having worked for the man so to speak and been involved in the executive process, if there was a concern over undue repairs and the simple solution was to eliminate the source, e.g., bi or tri-amping, and it wouldn't alienate but a rather small segment of their customer base, so be it.  Business is rather black and white, more so in times of financial turbulence. 

The mere fact that they do need to bold print that Ribbon Ruptures are not covered is a good indication that there is concern in this arena.  While they can't do a thing about under or over amplification from a single source, they can from bi or tri-amping.

Understand, the true die hard's who want to bi or tri-amp still will, but without the benefit of the 3 year limited warranty.

The only other alternative is that Magnepan feels that the employed x/o is superior and the end result of tone/resolution/clarity/dynamics justifies the end.  I will let the reader choose which option is best as there is no way a company will come out and say they did it to cut down on warranty repairs.  However, Wendell is known to be pretty straight forward and might spill the beans if under the influence of Josh's charm and with a dose of good music

Jim

[macrojack]

You can't please everyone - so you choose a course of action that will create the least ill will.

If utilization of active crossovers by the uninitiated causes warranty complaints and potential bad feelings, and lack of that option causes mere grumbling (and second guessing), then perhaps it was decided that the KISS principle should prevail.

I know from reading threads here about active crossover networks and multi-amping that there is a wealth of misinformation and confusion about the subject. Probably, Magnapan decided that it was in everyone's best interest to circumvent the topic entirely. Who can blame them?

And let's remember the title of this thread is Core Values not Hard Core Values.

[MaggiesAndCats]

Josh,

Re:  Trip to Magnepan - Sweet!  I wasn't into high end audio in my college days when I lived in the Twin Cities area 30 some years ago.  I did visit Van Alstines stereo shop back then.  My buck list is full of modest goals, one of them being taking a trip back and visting Magnepan and Audio Research, along with an old friend or two.

P.S. - Try get a picture of you and Wendell standing next to x.7 circuit diagrams...

Regards,

Steve

[rw@cn]

Like some others here, I don't plan to do any modifications (other than the Mye stands I have) to my maggies. If I can find an older one and one of my son-in-laws wants to get involved, maybe.