[TONEPUB]

Hi Jackman:

FYI, I wasn't wondering why people like tubes.  I believe I listed four or five awesome tube preamplifiers. I was merely commenting on someone saying that solid state preamps are not capable of what tube preamps are.

Same with the phono stages and power amps.  I've heard great examples of both.  just sayin.... 

[Steve]

steve, w/o quoting your whole post - for the most part, i agree w/you.  and i agree measurements are critical.  the only point i am trying to make is there is a big unknown inwolved.  and a recording, no matter how good, is yust that - a recording.  it is not the real thing.  we can try to get close.  but it is not necessarily the "best" measurements that will yield the "best" sonic results; a loudspeaker is different than the musical instrument itself, as well as all the equipment before it; and the mic and all the equipment after it, in front of the musical instrument.

you and your gear is a perfect example.  your preamps are highly regarded.  i suspect you could make preamps that measure better if you decided to forgo tubes.  and, as you say, listening tests play a crucial part in your design.

best,

doug s.

I can understand your point Doug. As far as going SS, well I can reduce the HD to .012% or less to .005% or something like that, with feedback, but I don't see the need. Besides that I deal with other forms of distortion, such as masking distortion etc.

Yes, specs are great but as you nicely mention sophisticated listening tests are the final step in design. Thanks Doug and have a great Thanksgiving.

----------

For general public consumption, newbies etc.

An area that tubes are superior is in the internal capacitance dielectric absorption (DA). Tubes use a vacuum as the dielectric while SS uses  doping materials etc as insulation, which has high DA concerns. As SS manufacturers use devices that have less capacitance, this issue should become less of a concern, hopefully.

Another area is solid states high plate resistance. In order to obtain great high frequency response one needs low internal capacitance and/or a low value collector resistor (equivalent to plate resistance in tubes). As such a emitter follower output stage or equivalent is usually beneficial to lower the output Z, just like high plate resistance  tubes.

SS usually has predominantly odd order harmonics and higher order harmonics, while tubes generally have more even order and lower orders of distortion products.

If global feedback is used, higher orders of HD are possible. As such there is a weighting table (RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook, 1960), showing that higher orders require less % of distortion to be objectionable.

Cheers and happy Thanksgiving to all.

[Quiet Earth]

re: y's and w's; years ago, i shared a house with turkish roomies - they could not properly say words that begin with v or j.  it's a habit that stuck w/me...

This is the most important part of the entire thread. The missing link!

 I have always wondered about the y's and the w's. Thanks for sharing that with us doug. Awesome!


I have been enjoying the thread for a while now and I gotta say,,,,,,,,,,,,, at some point you gotta stop debating the theory of operation and pick a flavor. I guess you could say that I side with Woodsyi and doug because I do believe in flavors. Pick one and don't worry about it being right or wrong. Enjoy it for what it is (or isn't).


By the way, everyone knows that Einstein used a transformer volume control. It was the simplest (but no simpler) way for him to get his single ended triode amp to really sing with his tubed source components. 



I wonder if Einstein had as much trouble spelling on a laptop as I do?

[TONEPUB]

This is the most important part of the entire thread. The missing link!

 I have always wondered about the y's and the w's. Thanks for sharing that with us doug. Awesome!


I have been enjoying the thread for a while now and I gotta say,,,,,,,,,,,,, at some point you gotta stop debating the theory of operation and pick a flavor. I guess you could say that I side with Woodsyi and doug because I do believe in flavors. Pick one and don't worry about it being right or wrong. Enjoy it for what it is (or isn't).


By the way, everyone knows that Einstein used a transformer volume control. It was the simplest (but no simpler) way for him to get his single ended triode amp to really sing with his tubed source components. 



I wonder if Einstein had as much trouble spelling on a laptop as I do?

I think this is an excellent point!

[Rclark]

However, as Doug pointed out, the new ldr's such as the Warpspeed offer a third standalone flavor of very high quality that apparently can hang with the best for not a lot of money.

[doug s.]

However, as Doug pointed out, the new ldr's such as the Warpspeed offer a third standalone flavor of very high quality that apparently can hang with the best for not a lot of money.

i have not tried the warpspeed, but the raving about it is true imo, if it's anything at all like the eva-2 i got.  while i never have used my eva-2 as a stand-alone, i was floored that it would actually give a noticeable improvement to my melos preamp, whose upgraded photentiometer pot is known for its transparency.

doug s.

[bunky]

I was there in Northern Va,it was the stock SAS 11A VS the upgraded Modwright with teflon caps. in my opinion musical Instruments sounded much truer to life on the 11A and some other folks who were there also agreed with my opinion . both preamps sounded great but i much prefered the 11A, the Modwright was more colored and less transparent but some folks prefer that type of presentation. what it all boils down to is personal preference.for the money nothing even gets close to the 11A in terms of speed and clarity 

[Steve]

Well, I thank you for the support. It is certainly much appreciated and nice to hear. With that said, I hope we only present brands/models that we think produce very nice 3D.

I hope no one takes offense by this post. I just wish to
make sure we don't become guilty of what others have
already done.

Cheers and Happy Thanksgiving to all. 

[Rocket_Ronny]

If someone says they like this pre over that pre that's fine with me. Even if they say it kills the other. None of this is absolute science when talking about preferences. One has to factor in system synergy and equipment combinations. It's a lot like cooking. A little of this and some of that make the meal.

Just because someone says this is the greatest does not necessarily make it so. One has to go by a lot of comments and add things up. Then listen to the piece in your own rig to see how it translates. I can see how all this talk can make manufactures and dealers a little nervous though.

Thanks for all the great pre recommendations. Some of the gear I have never heard of until this thread. 

It would be nice if people could also state the preamps tone and detail level.

Myself, I like to go with highly detailed, neutral speakers. If the system needs body and tone do it at the amp, or preamp level. Gives one more flexibility over having a warm, or colored, speaker, as you are now stuck with that sound.


Rocket_Ronny

[SteveFord]

Here's what's been mentioned so far (unless I missed something):

Aesthetix Callisto Signature
Atma-Sphere MP-1
Audio Research LS27
Audio Resarch REF 40
Audio Research Ref 5
Burmester, all
Conrad johnson Art 3
darTZeel
Decware SE84C
Eastern Electric Minimax
eva-2
Klyne
Luxman, all
Manley 300B
McIntosh C500
McCormack DNA 500
Melos
MFA Venusian
NAT Audio Symmetrical
Purity Audio Silver Statement
SAS Labs 7A
SAS Labs 10A
SAS Labs 11A
Sun 300B
TVC
VAC Ref Sig MkII
Vitus Audio
Warpspeed Octo

[doug s.]

Here's what's been mentioned so far (unless I missed something):

Aesthetix Callisto Signature
Atma-Sphere MP-1
Audio Research LS27
Audio Resarch REF 40
Audio Research Ref 5
Burmester, all
Conrad johnson Art 3
darTZeel
Decware SE84C
Eastern Electric Minimax
Klyne
Luxman, all
Manley 300B
McIntosh C500
McCormack DNA 500
Melos
MFA Venusian
NAT Audio Symmetrical
Purity Audio Silver Statement
SAS Labs 7A
SAS Labs 10A
Sun 300B
VAC Ref Sig MkII
Vitus Audio
Warpspeed Octo

you missed:

eva-2 

doug s.

[bunky]

you missed:

eva-2 

doug s.

and SAS 11A

[Rocket_Ronny]

The less colorations, sonic signatures, the better the synergy will ultimately be.

Thanks Steve, I agree with that. Although sometimes one might some warmth or coloration to suit their preferences.


Thanks Steve Ford for that list. Awesome, it makes nice and easy.


Rocket_Ronny

[SteveFord]

Updated it with the ones I missed.
My Sonic Frontiers preamps aren't real holographic but they just sound right to me.
The amps are what makes or breaks it with those guys.
Even so, I do plan on trying a different preamp or two next year just for the fun of it.
After all, you can never have too much tube gear.

[Quiet Earth]

I wouldn't get too upset over this thread Steve. It's just another "please reccommend the best X component" thread, which is basically a laundry list of whatever is on people's mind at the time. If I missed the part where only your products were being dissed, then I guess that shows my internet callous. The new normal? Maybe. I am also used to the Audio Circle pet manufacture cult club thing going on, so that blows right by me too. Big deal.

Fear not. No one will walk away from this thread thinking that they should avoid your products.


Also, since this is a tube specific forum, I am indeed recommending a TVC as being hollographic, transparent, true to character, or whatever, because when using all tube components a TVC seems to work very well in my experience. I would only avoid trying a TVC with a tube amp that needs more than 1.5 volts to achieve full power and/or when using inefficient speakers.

This isn't rocket science either. An active pre is nothing more than a passive pre with a gain stage (or two) after the volume control. Transformer output if you have the money. The interconnects that go into an active pre need to be as short as the interconnects that go into a passive pre because the architecture is the same in both up to that point. With a TVC you can get away with longer output ICs just like you can with an active pre, but with a resistive passive you cannot.  This has been my experience, which is only a grain of salt in the ocean of internet opinions.

But all technobabble aside, I recommend a tvc as a viable preamp for a tube based system because I actually prefer the sound. TVC has character, it is not thread bare. This is relavent to the OP. Apples oranges and all.

The finest active preamp that I have ever heard was an Audio Valve Conductor followed by an old Audio Note M3. I would love to hear the new version of the AN M6 or M8, but I don't know if I want to spend that much money right now.

Save me the drumstick.............. Happy Turkey day!

[Steve]

Thanks Steve, I agree with that. Although sometimes one might some warmth or coloration to suit their preferences.


Rocket_Ronny

Thanks Ron. I can appreciate that. I hope I was not too direct in my comments. Don't mean to be.

Cheers

[doug s.]

...sometimes one might some warmth or coloration to suit their preferences.

this gets to the crux of what i was talking about before.  i want what sounds most like real music to come out of my speakers.  when it comes to electronics, i am not sure that what is most accurate on a graph, 'scope, etc., is necessarily what sounds most like real music.  this is where the black art and where extensive listening tests come into play.  i am sure it's why better designers, like steve of sas, spend so much time listening as well as measuring...

doug s.

[Steve]

this gets to the crux of what i was talking about before.  i want what sounds most like real music to come out of my speakers.  when it comes to electronics, i am not sure that what is most accurate on a graph, 'scope, etc., is necessarily what sounds most like real music.  this is where the black art and where extensive listening tests come into play.  i am sure it's why better designers, like steve of sas, spend so much time listening as well as measuring...

doug s.

Yep, I agree Doug. Sophisticated long term listening testing is really important, the last test in design. As one works with each component in the system, as the synergy improves, one will find a spaciousness, realism, a soundstage that is amazing (and with fewer and fewer  sonic signature(s)).

Another bottleneck to synergy and lessening 3D effect could be the analog/mute stages, after the DAC chip itself, in players and DACs. Very few players/DACs have top notch quality analog stages. Usually they are relatively cheap designs, even when using discrete parts.

Imo, everything is important if one is to obtain the maximum 3D effect, and synergy.

Cheers.

[JohnR]

Why is a manufacturer meddling in a non-commercial thread?

[Rocket_Ronny]

I don't know, but I find Steve's comments interesting. I like having those that create the gear to share input.


Rocket_Ronny