[Wayner]

The resonance frequency of the plinth changes with mass.

Wayner

[neobop]

Gumby, Joe,
Despite Tonepub's presence, no useful information has been added for your choices Re: Sota and possibly others. Looking over this thread, his posts read like a PR man for his buddies at Rega. What is a supposedly unbiased reviewer doing, checking on the review sample sent to another publication? Obviously he's looking out for Rega. If Fremer measured small speed discrepancies with a Southerland laser or whatever he used, you can be assured that it's true. You might not agree with everything Fremer says, but he's not a liar. I'm sure he didn't make up anything in his review just to discredit the table. He's coming from a very high end perspective, living with and reviewing state of the art components. Would that give him more or less credibility reviewing something like this? I didn't read the review cause I really don't care. Maybe there are some comparisons with other offerings in the price range. I still suggest you guys look for that.

If the table has accurate speed stability, why do you need the power supply? The low torque motor can't maintain accurate speed under load, without it. The P5 is still on closeout, but figure $1500 w/speed box + shipping. I think both you guys might be making a mistake, but I can't be sure. That's because I don't know how sensitive you'll be to speed anomalies even with the box. I can't say the Comet will be any better. My Sapphire is unacceptable (to me) in that respect. With an optional power supply some others seem to find it acceptable. I don't. I've heard Sapphires, HW-19 etc with PS, and DD has them beat for speed accuracy. If you can find a DD with a brushless/slotless motor, you've got it made. Unfortunately, buying an older DD is becoming increasingly risky. Some of the chips used for speed control aren't being made any more. Back in the '70s and '80s start-up TT manufacturers started producing BD because it was easier and they couldn't compete with the Japanese. Now we're all paying the price. Is that the musician bending a note, or warble/flutter?

Gumby, you have 2, 1200s. I think your money would be better spent going all out with the KAB. Replace the plinth or make a heavy steel cover and you'll lose that overdamped aspect. I concur with Bas about that, but I don't find it as objectionable. I also concur about the overall performance of an entry level BD, even though I've never lived with a P5 or Comet. I know that's not what you want to do, never the less..... I just want to be on record here, saying what I really think.
neo

The REGA arms are in fact die cast.  I've been to the factory (twice) and have seen the actual die.  As for the speed error, I talked to the us importer and they said that the table measured perfect accuracy before it was sent out.  The one we reviewed and a good friends RP3 (which was a random stock item from music direct) both measured 1000 hz on the nose when playing a test tone.

And, if you've listened to a pair of p3's side by side, one with ps and one without, the diff is clear.  But fremer hasn't done that either.

The quality control at REGA is very high.  As any decent mfr will tell you, it's always better to get it right the first time, rather than ship out defective product and have to deal with it in the field...

[2gumby2]

neobop - I suppose it is my audiophile nature that I'm always looking for something that might be "better" than what I already have. I've never owned a belt-drive TT, but it seems they are very popular and I have some curiosity about them. Hence, my consideration of the Rega and SOTA. I am open to other recommendations as well. I like what I've read about the Well Tempered Lab TTs, but they're outside my budget right now. The Well Tempered may be worth saving up for though.

[bastlnut]

hallo,

if it is a question about upgrading the TT and spending about $1500 or so.....
buy a used Oracle Delphi from Agon or ebay and upgrade that later when funds permit.
it will be so much better than the SL 1200 and will not lose value if you want to sell it later.
this is a used TT that is not a stab in the dark because Oracle customer service is great.
i am not associated with Oracle, just a restorer that is more than happy with the quality on offer.

regards,
bas

[neobop]

Bas,
We've been saying similar from day 1. It's new or nothing, and comes down to P5 vs Comet.

Gumby,
Since it's not really possible for you to spend some time with these various offerings, all you can do is give one a try. If you buy a new table and find it unsuitable, You could probably recover most of your money. Who knows, maybe you'll like the change. Even without any info on the Sota, there might be enough enough here to make a decision? I don't know how much you researched these. I've found a couple of reviews of the Comet and I think it will have a different character than the P5. Rather than a glass platter, the Sota has a composite platter and subchassis or subplatter. I'd guess that it isn't as lively as the Rega. My Sapphire has a composite mat that's probably the same stuff. It's sort of like Delrin, but there are many variations of these plastics and the exact formula is proprietary. Excluding my Goldmund, it's the best platter material I've used. You won't need a mat, maybe a clamp. I'm not sure about the power supply. The Sapphire is 24V and an upgrade box is available for around the same money as the Rega supply. If you're still considering the Comet, I suggest you verify these details.

The P5 has the RB700 arm which is better. I don't think it comes with VTA adjustment, like the other Rega arms, so an aftermarket upgrade(s) is probably the same. The table is more important than the arm in this case, and I suggest going for the table that seems most promising. I read the same accolades for each, so I can't really say. I think the sound of the Sota would probably appeal more to me. I'm not sure about you. I don't like glass platters, they're a PIA, but you can upgrade that too. Considering what you could get, I still think it's a mistake and I still don't understand why. A new Delphi sold for around $1200 in late '80s. I think a new one is around $8K. Whatever you decide, good luck and let us know please.
neo 

[TONEPUB]

Gumby, Joe,
Despite Tonepub's presence, no useful information has been added for your choices Re: Sota and possibly others. Looking over this thread, his posts read like a PR man for his buddies at Rega. What is a supposedly unbiased reviewer doing, checking on the review sample sent to another publication? Obviously he's looking out for Rega. If Fremer measured small speed discrepancies with a Southerland laser or whatever he used, you can be assured that it's true. You might not agree with everything Fremer says, but he's not a liar. I'm sure he didn't make up anything in his review just to discredit the table. He's coming from a very high end perspective, living with and reviewing state of the art components. Would that give him more or less credibility reviewing something like this? I didn't read the review cause I really don't care. Maybe there are some comparisons with other offerings in the price range. I still suggest you guys look for that.

If the table has accurate speed stability, why do you need the power supply? The low torque motor can't maintain accurate speed under load, without it. The P5 is still on closeout, but figure $1500 w/speed box + shipping. I think both you guys might be making a mistake, but I can't be sure. That's because I don't know how sensitive you'll be to speed anomalies even with the box. I can't say the Comet will be any better. My Sapphire is unacceptable (to me) in that respect. With an optional power supply some others seem to find it acceptable. I don't. I've heard Sapphires, HW-19 etc with PS, and DD has them beat for speed accuracy. If you can find a DD with a brushless/slotless motor, you've got it made. Unfortunately, buying an older DD is becoming increasingly risky. Some of the chips used for speed control aren't being made any more. Back in the '70s and '80s start-up TT manufacturers started producing BD because it was easier and they couldn't compete with the Japanese. Now we're all paying the price. Is that the musician bending a note, or warble/flutter?

Gumby, you have 2, 1200s. I think your money would be better spent going all out with the KAB. Replace the plinth or make a heavy steel cover and you'll lose that overdamped aspect. I concur with Bas about that, but I don't find it as objectionable. I also concur about the overall performance of an entry level BD, even though I've never lived with a P5 or Comet. I know that's not what you want to do, never the less..... I just want to be on record here, saying what I really think.
neo

Neo, while you are so assured that we are in bed with Rega, we know everyone in the analog world, we aren't "looking out for REGA" anymore than anyone else.  The speed thing has been an issue with them for years, so when I was talking to them about a review of another product, the subject came up.  No one called michael fremer "a liar."  Things get damaged/out of alignment in shipping all the time. And I've got just as much money invested in my system if not more than Fremer does, so I'm coming from the same point.

I also find it interesting that the possibility that Mikey (or myself, or any other reviewer for that matter) could have measured something incorrectly doesn't even enter into your thought process.  Who's being a buddy now?

And I thought the question here was about the Rega...   I'm probably the only reviewer in recent history that has actually reviewed and lived with the full line of Rega tables and has compared them side by side.  Owning a P3-24 and a P9 and having the ability to compare them (and the other models in the line) side by side makes it pretty easy to get a handle on things. 

As for the other choices, there are too many good ones to list.  We've used the Clearaudio Concept recently with excellent results, the Consonance table from Grant Audio that is in the ballpark and the Sota.  All are great tables and great values for the money.  I wish I could say I've had the same luck with Oracle that Bas has had, but I haven't.  I hope they have improved in that area, as I still love my Oracle too.

I own 9 turntables from Oracle, Rega, AVID, Technics, Linn and Consonance.  When you review as much stuff as we do, you get to know them all. We all talk pretty freely about what we're working on, it's not the big conspiracy that you'd like to think.

If you actually read our reviews, you'd see that we've discussed a very wide range of analog options.  Thanks to this forum I've even become a champion of the 1200.  We've covered a few variations on that theme, and are currently reviewing one with the full suite of Zu mods - very interesting.

Every turntable at the $1000 - 2000 price is a compromise, it's about finding one you can live with.

I think what becomes problematic is the amount of analysis paralysis that goes on here, especially at this price level.  I suggest starting somewhere, seeing what you like and don't like, then moving on.  The chances that you are going to get exactly what you want in a turntable/arm/cartridge the first time around is slim, no matter how much or how little you spend.  It's a journey.

[Wayner]

Well put, Jeff.

Wayner

[TONEPUB]

Dude, you and the chair guy were responsible for my major interest in the 1200!

It's always fun to find a new avenue for analog.  A few people here have been prodding on the Empire, so as soon as I get a little spare time, that will probably be the next project as well as some Funk Firm upgrades for my LP12.  It never stops!

[TomS]

... A few people here have been prodding on the Empire, so as soon as I get a little spare time, that will probably be the next project

I'm on board with that one Jeff. My stock donor 298 is already in place waiting for a massage

[Wayner]

Dude, you and the chair guy were responsible for my major interest in the 1200!

It's always fun to find a new avenue for analog.  A few people here have been prodding on the Empire, so as soon as I get a little spare time, that will probably be the next project as well as some Funk Firm upgrades for my LP12.  It never stops!

If I had the original box for the Empire, I'd let you borrow it for a time. I have to post this again:

 

 

[TONEPUB]

Nice!  Gotta check one out.  I'll ask my local guy, Kurt at Echo Audio to start sniffing around for one here in Portland.

[randytsuch]

If I had the original box for the Empire, I'd let you borrow it for a time. I have to post this again:

 

 

Is it just me, or is the belt missing?   

Randy

[neobop]

Tonepub,
This is Gumby's initial post. Joe came on board a few pages later and asked about the Comet.

I've got room in one of my 2-channel systems for another turntable. I've always owned Technics direct drive turntables in the past, but I'm considering giving belt drive a try out of curiosity. I was leaning toward a SOTA Comet, but came across the Rega P5 on sale at NeedleDoctor. Around the same price range is the new Rega RP3 as well. Would the new RP3 RB303 tonearm be any better than the RB700 on the P5? Anyone know if the performance of the RP3 surpasses the P5? From what I've read, it seems both of the Regas really need the additional TT-PSU to get the most out of them and that adds $375 to the cost. I'm open to suggestions/recommendations.

In light of that opening, it sure looked like you were a cheerleader for Rega and no one said anything about the Sota, including you.

I'm not sure what all that business about drawing a line in the sand was about, but when Fremer posted here, I was critical. So there's nothing buddy buddy about any of this. Now, I guess you think there's not much difference between the two tables? You could have said that right off the bat. Even in your last post you said, "As for the other choices, there are too many good ones to list.  We've used the Clearaudio Concept recently with excellent results, the Consonance table from Grant Audio that is in the ballpark and the Sota.  All are great tables and great values for the money." Is that your final answer or do you want to phone a friend?

Maybe it's not worth the effort to give a brief description of differences, but that's what this thread is supposed to be about. These guys aren't just starting out. If you have specific knowledge of these tables, you could be a little more forthcoming.

[TONEPUB]

The P3/P5 excel at speed and pace, the 1200 has better pitch stability, with more bass weight.  The Sota and the Clear are somewhere in-between, and perhaps the arm on the Clearaudio Concept is even a bit better than what's on the Rega or the Sota (which is an RB 300 arm, or at least used to be)  The SOTA and the REGA do not have adjustable VTA stock, though you can buy spacers which will give you a rough, but acceptable adjustment.

When comparing the RP3 to the P3 side by side, the RP3 is definitely more resolving and more musical.  Without hearing the two in a direct comparison, with the same cartridges and the same music, both playing through the REF 2 Phono, so I can just switch between the RP3 and the P5.  However, knowing the advance in the RP3 from the P3, I'd guess it's pretty close.

In my opinion, having used all four of the main Rega tables, I see the diff in performance as being moderate between the P3, P5 and P7 with the huge jump going to the P9.  For my money (and this is what I've done in my own system) I'd buy a P3 or a P9. YMMV and I've seen plenty of people argue to the ends of the Earth on this question.

While I think there are obvious differences between the tables, at least half of that can be changed by a different cartridge, i.e., you could split some of the diff between the Rega and the Technics by putting a more romantic sounding cart on the Rega or a more lively cart on the Technics. etc. etc. Even more change in sound character could be had by mixing it up with phono stage.

And we haven't even started talking about setup.  Do you want plug and play or do you want to tweak to infinity?

Which again leads to that devil analysis paralysis and why in the end, I think all of these tables are pretty darn good for the money and a good place to start, no matter which one you choose.

Rather than freak out about which one of these tables to buy, I'd concentrate on really dialing in the setup on which one you choose and fine tuning it with cart and/or phono stage.

My other suggestion to Gumby would be if you have been listening to the 1200 for a while, the diff between the P3 and the 1200 will depend a lot on how tolerant you are of the pitch thing with a modest belt drive table, and to try and get a demo of a Rega if at all possible.  It will either rub you the wrong way, or won't matter at all.  Again, the 1200, while a bit dark through the midrange and treble in comparison to the P3/RP3 definitely bass more bass weight and slam.  Should you decide to go the modded 1200 route, I'd suggest the Sound HiFi mods over the KAB, but that's just personal preference and again, this has been argued to death.  The KAB mods are definitely decent value for the money.  And if I remember, you said you have a pair of them?  If so, you could probably sell one of them for enough money to finance the KAB mods on your 1200.  Not a bad way to roll, though I'm not a fan of the SL1200 arm.

So, no, I don't need to phone a friend.  I have managed to get very enjoyable sound out of all of these tables, while none of them are close to what I'm getting from the AVID Acutus Ref SP/SME V/ARC REF Phono 2, they all do an excellent job at nailing the basics and being very musical. Again, I feel system synergy and meticulous attention to detail setting up a table at this price point will yield more results than agonizing over which model to buy.

[doug s.]

Is it just me, or is the belt missing?   

Randy

it's yust you - the suspended empires have a stepped platter, the belt is under the lower motor cover, and rides below the plinth.

doug s.

[2gumby2]

TONEPUB - Thanks for expanding on your opinions of the tables. One of my SL-1200s has the Cardas tonearm rewire and strobe light on/off switch installed by KAB. Which SoundHiFi mods do you recommend and why?

[Wayner]

TONEPUB, of all the Rega tables that you have had the privilege of listening to, which one has the best bang for the buck? The P5?

Wayner

[doug s.]

TONEPUB, of all the Rega tables that you have had the privilege of listening to, which one has the best bang for the buck? The P5?

Wayner

wayner, tonepub said:
"In my opinion, having used all four of the main Rega tables, I see the diff in performance as being moderate between the P3, P5 and P7 with the huge jump going to the P9.  For my money (and this is what I've done in my own system) I'd buy a P3 or a P9."
i don't like speaking for others, but in this case, if i were a betting man, i'd pick p3 as tonepub's "best bang for buck" choice.   p9 as best choice for the higher priced spread. 

doug s.

[joegator81]

Just thought i'd jump back in. I pulled the trigger on a clearaudio concept. I have had my eye on that table for a while but could never jump on the good deals fast enough. I found a dealer demo which included the concept MC, dustcover, and record weight for a substantial discount. Unfortunately the cartridge arrived with the tip of the stylus missing     However i have a friends old JVC cart (a rebadged AT 3100 or something like that - have no idea if its a well regarded cart or not, maybe someone can chime in?) on it for the time being. The dealer has been very helpful and arranged for a brand new MC to be sent to me from the distributer   

I am coming from a Technics 1700 MkII w/ a Shure M97xE, a combo which i really like. I can easily say that i am already noticing improvements even without the MC. The center image is far more stable and the bass is much tighter w/ more detail, though that may be due to the difference in cartridges (the shure always seemed to have a full but slightly flabby bass). I also think the highs are a bit more pronounced but not drastically so. I think again this may be due to the cartridge. Compared to my friends Ortofon Vivo Blue the JVC cart was a bit bright, though sibilants don't seem to get out of hand. The midrange is nicely detailed. The concept seems to me to have a balanced sound, not too soft, not too hard and with a great sense of ease or flow... or whatever you want to call it 

As i've said before, Vinyl is new-hat for me so i am learning alot. But i've been going through alot of my vinyl w/ the concept and enjoying the heck out of it. I can't wait to get the MC on it! from what i've read it is very smooth and complementary of the table.

Some have said that the Concept is susceptable to footfalls and vibrations. My room has concrete floors and i have it on top of my shelf w/ isolation below it so no problems there.

[TONEPUB]

TONEPUB, of all the Rega tables that you have had the privilege of listening to, which one has the best bang for the buck? The P5?

Wayner

P3 has always been my favorite at the price, and the RP3 is better yet.


Gator, glad you are enjoying the Concept...

Gumby, If you have the technics arm rewired, that's always what I felt was the weakest link in the stock 1200.  I like the Sound HIFI mod, because it gets rid of the big transformer under the platter.  Eliminates transformer related buzz and opens the sound up quite a bit thanks to the external power supply.  I'm even thinking of taking it one step further and going with a Red Wine Audio Black lightning to supply pure DC to the 1200 and see what happens.

Easy to get lured down the rabbit hole!