Considering a new turntable

TONEPUB · « **Reply #120 on:** 13 Nov 2011, 10:45 pm »

Quote from: roscoeiii on 13 Nov 2011, 08:04 pm

TONEPUB,

Can you give us an idea of the ways you see yourself and MF as being on different pages? That will certainly be helpful to help those of us reading your and his reviews and columns triangulate where you stand.

BTW, many thanks to TONEPUB for donating MusicDirect LP of your choice gift certificates to yesterday's ChiUniFi headphone meet. I was lucky enough to win one. Thinking it is time to pick up that new DSOTM, unless TONEPUB has another recommendation...

I think if you read our magazine and you read mr. fremer, it's pretty obvious where the line is drawn in the sand.

That still doesn't mean you can't learn something from all of us. For me, it's about discovery, and there's more knowledge to be found than ever before between the magazines, the online publications and the forums.

doug s. · « **Reply #121 on:** 14 Nov 2011, 01:25 am »

tonepub, i have two requests of you; one digital, the other analog.

1 - get a wintage empire 298 or 398, tweak it per this site, w/a decent arm, and let us know how it stacks up against the $1k-$2k new offerings:
http://cognitivevent.com/av_empire.html

2 - get a nova physics memory player 64 for rewiew and let us know what you think...
http://www.thememoryplayer.net/

best,

doug s.

TONEPUB · « **Reply #122 on:** 14 Nov 2011, 01:43 am »

We're working on getting the memory player, I'm hoping to see it after CES.

As for the empire, we've been waiting for a Paschetto Empire. I don't have enough
hours in a day to restore a turntable at this point. When Mike has the time to send
us one of his, we'll give it a run through, and because I have a pair of SME 309 arms,
identical Furutech tonearm cables and a couple of pairs of cartridges, we can compare it
to a few things side by side and actually see what it is capable of.

doug s. · « **Reply #123 on:** 14 Nov 2011, 02:54 am »

Quote from: TONEPUB on 14 Nov 2011, 01:43 am

We're working on getting the memory player, I'm hoping to see it after CES.

As for the empire, we've been waiting for a Paschetto Empire. I don't have enough
hours in a day to restore a turntable at this point. When Mike has the time to send
us one of his, we'll give it a run through, and because I have a pair of SME 309 arms,
identical Furutech tonearm cables and a couple of pairs of cartridges, we can compare it
to a few things side by side and actually see what it is capable of.

tonepub, this is good news, re: the memory player 64; i anxiously await your feedback.

re: the empire, tho, the paschetto, while still basically an empire, kinda defeats what i was getting at - that for a few hundred dollars, and a few hours of effort, you can have something that competes with... well... a paschetto!

i am sure that, w/its completely new plinth, (a la the atmosphere 208), and a beautiful refinish, it is a great deck. but it is also now $2500, w/o arm. last week a nice wintage empire 298, (208 w/arm), sold for <$300 on ebay. as-is, i think it's a competitor. but you can replace the arm, (which you can then re-sell, typically for ~$200), damp the plinth w/mortite, upgrade the mat, paint the underside of the platter w/soundcoat or equivalent, and you are good to go - wery little effort inwolved. i simply thought it would be nice to get your opinion on a stocker, or a unit mildly tweaked as described. i know how good one sounded w/a wintage grado wooden arm, and w/an rs-labs arm, w/no other mods, which is why i think they're the turntable to buy under $2k. but, my experience is admittedly limited...

best,

doug s.

TONEPUB · « **Reply #124 on:** 14 Nov 2011, 03:28 am »

the only problem with that is it isn't something that's really a reliable sample to judge.

you can always save a few bucks if you refurb/restore something and comparing that to a new table for $2500 is apples to oranges. We really don't do a lot of DIY for that reason.

It's not something that you can get readily repaired if something goes wrong, either, and it's not anything that's readily available. We did an article on the guy from Fix My Dual, because he has a steady stream of replacement tables and repair parts, but this is a little bit out of the realm of what we normally cover. Not to say that we might not approach it in the "analogaholic" section of our website one of these days, but for now, too much on the front and rear burners!

vinyl_guy · « **Reply #125 on:** 14 Nov 2011, 04:11 am »

Quote from: roscoeiii on 13 Nov 2011, 08:04 pm

Thinking it is time to pick up that new DSOTM, unless TONEPUB has another recommendation...

Check out the reviews on Amazon before you get the new DSOTM--everyone complains of surface noise indicative of poor quality control at the pressing plant. An AC member posted in the Music Circle that he experienced the same thing--lots of surface noise on a brand new record, http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=100235.msg1012328#msg1012328.

Laura

TONEPUB · « **Reply #126 on:** 14 Nov 2011, 04:16 am »

I didn't hear that noise on mine, but it's really not that big of a deal. I'd buy a 15 dollar mofi first...

But I've heard way too much PF in the last month! My ears are numb.

vinyl_guy · « **Reply #127 on:** 14 Nov 2011, 04:22 am »

I have an original pressing of DSOTM, the 30th anniversary pressing and the MoFi pressing and the MoFi is the best IMO.

TONEPUB · « **Reply #128 on:** 14 Nov 2011, 05:17 am »

I'm with you Laura. My staff collector really likes the first stamper UK and second stamper german, and I had a chance to compare all of these in our recent article, but I preferred the Mofi UHQR in my system. Managed to get a killer deal on one. Even the regular MoFi is excellent and they pressed a ton of them. You can usually find a nice copy on Ebay for 10-20 bucks.

Lyndon · « **Reply #129 on:** 14 Nov 2011, 06:52 am »

Tonepub said:

Quote

But I've heard way too much PF in the last month! My ears are numb.

But are they comfortably numb?

I thought it was Laura who said she liked the two channel SACD version of DSOM, so I dutifully bought one on Amazon used.
Now I just have to hook up my SACD dvd player...

neobop · « **Reply #130 on:** 14 Nov 2011, 01:20 pm »

Wayner,
Okay, lets forget it and move on.

Quote from: TONEPUB on 14 Nov 2011, 03:28 am

the only problem with that is it isn't something that's really a reliable sample to judge.

you can always save a few bucks if you refurb/restore something and comparing that to a new table for $2500 is apples to oranges. We really don't do a lot of DIY for that reason.

It's not something that you can get readily repaired if something goes wrong, either, and it's not anything that's readily available. We did an article on the guy from Fix My Dual, because he has a steady stream of replacement tables and repair parts, but this is a little bit out of the realm of what we normally cover. Not to say that we might not approach it in the "analogaholic" section of our website one of these days, but for now, too much on the front and rear burners!

One of the problems for at least a few of us responding to the OP, is buying a new table in this price range. We wouldn't hesitate to buy something used. When I take a look on Agon or fleabey I see some really cool stuff that I know will outperform (w/TLC) what's being considered. I saw a Technics SL-M3 for asking price of $750. I'd love to mess around with one of those beauteous wooden tanks with a linear arm. If the arm isn't satisfactory or breaks, I could put a pivoting arm on there and be happy as a clam? I've also read that this is perfect for driving another platter with a belt made out of video tape. Don't laugh, it's said to give killer speed stability. All right, laugh. It might take up a lot of room, but it would be fun to try. I've also seen belt drivers that seem to be in another league, Oracles, Origin Live, and other DD classics like SP-10MKII w/o plinth, Micro Seiki, etc. How about a refurbished Lenco idler? But DIY and vintage is out for the reasons mentioned above, and rightfully so in this case. If you think about it, most of those with 1200's aren't using a stock table. Plinth and arm replacements and external power supplies seem to be the ultimate mods. I've also seen Regas with plinth and platter replacements, rewired arms with VTA adjusters, and DC motors with speed boxes. Apples to apples.

The only other alternative I can think of for Gumby and Joe, is a demo or slightly used higher priced table that comes with warranty or transferable warranty. I've seen tables that sell closer to $2K or even more that you could get from a dealer that would have full warranty and dealer support. I don't know how something like a Thorens 309 or Origin Live Aurora would compare to a P5 or Comet. Instinct tells me that Aurora might be better, but I really don't know. Not everyone has the time and inclination for mods. The not plug-n-play aspect is hard enough with a bran new table. Looking at it from that perspective, we're the lunatic fringe.
neo

doug s. · « **Reply #131 on:** 15 Nov 2011, 01:47 am »

Quote from: TONEPUB on 14 Nov 2011, 03:28 am

the only problem with that is it isn't something that's really a reliable sample to judge.

you can always save a few bucks if you refurb/restore something and comparing that to a new table for $2500 is apples to oranges. We really don't do a lot of DIY for that reason.

It's not something that you can get readily repaired if something goes wrong, either, and it's not anything that's readily available. We did an article on the guy from Fix My Dual, because he has a steady stream of replacement tables and repair parts, but this is a little bit out of the realm of what we normally cover. Not to say that we might not approach it in the "analogaholic" section of our website one of these days, but for now, too much on the front and rear burners!

i can understand your perspective, from a rewiewer's angle. but, the empires - especially the early unsprung iterations - rarely if ever need anything done to them to play, even when purchased used on fleabay. they are about as plug-n-play as you can get, imo, new or used. and, they're wirtually bullet-proof. about all they ever need is three new motor grommets and a new belt. this is why i recommend them as an entry-level deck, even for newbies. they can always be tweaked later, to make them competitive w/a lot of hi-end decks...

funny you should mention "fix my dual" - that's what they all need, imo!

they also aren't worth spending time or money on - again - imo. i bought a new 1219 years ago, before i knew any better; it was always breaking down, and its speed control was pretty mediocre - not sure that could ever be fixed. if i'd known then what i know now, i would have gotten an empire much earlier in my life...

ymmv,

doug s.

randytsuch · « **Reply #132 on:** 15 Nov 2011, 04:21 am »

I just found this thread, and since there is a discussion of empire tables, thought I would throw in my empire story.

Around 2005, I decided to give vinyl a try. After some research, I bought an old empire 298 table. My main reason for picking the empire was the bearing. Their bearing was manufactured to very tight tolerances. When you spin an empire platter, you can tell.

I guess it was me, but I could figure out a good way to change the arm, and still use the existing emprire plinth. I know I could have made an armboard, but at the time I was wondering how to get the vertical alignment right if I made an armboard.

So, I ended up building a corain plinth, and while I was at it, I outboarded the motor. I threw on a modded Rega arm, built a Cornet for the phono stage, and spun some vinyl.

It did sound good, and I used that setup for a year or two. But I got lazy after getting a squeezebox. Being able to pick any song in my library with a few button pushes is just too easy, so I now have to admit that my vinyl setup is neglected, gathering dust.

Randy

Guy 13 · « **Reply #133 on:** 15 Nov 2011, 10:21 am »

Quote from: randytsuch on 15 Nov 2011, 04:21 am

I just found this thread, and since there is a discussion of empire tables, thought I would throw in my empire story.

Around 2005, I decided to give vinyl a try. After some research, I bought an old empire 298 table. My main reason for picking the empire was the bearing. Their bearing was manufactured to very tight tolerances. When you spin an empire platter, you can tell.

I guess it was me, but I could figure out a good way to change the arm, and still use the existing emprire plinth. I know I could have made an armboard, but at the time I was wondering how to get the vertical alignment right if I made an armboard.

So, I ended up building a corain plinth, and while I was at it, I outboarded the motor. I threw on a modded Rega arm, built a Cornet for the phono stage, and spun some vinyl.

It did sound good, and I used that setup for a year or two. But I got lazy after getting a squeezebox. Being able to pick any song in my library with a few button pushes is just too easy, so I now have to admit that my vinyl setup is neglected, gathering dust.

Randy

Hi Randy and all Audio Circle members.
Can you post a picture of your Empire table?
I or some Audio Circle memebrs might make you an offer on your dusty table or we could learn more about your modifications.
Thanks.
Guy 13

randytsuch · « **Reply #134 on:** 15 Nov 2011, 03:19 pm »

Here's my blog about it where I detail most of the build

http://randytsuch-new-empire-tt.blogspot.com/

And even though it's unused right now, and I have a fair amount of money tied up in it and the Cornet, not ready to sell it quite yet

Randy

Wayner · « **Reply #135 on:** 15 Nov 2011, 04:05 pm »

There is a review by Mr. Fremer in this months Audiophile (December, Vol.34, No. 12) magazine in which he states the Rega RP3 "runs fast" by .1 to .2 rpm. He also made comments about the "quality control" of such inexpensive tables.

To that end, I know that most, if not all of the tables parts are made with CNC machines or are molded to tight tolerances, therefore, the comment is a bit ambiguous.

He also said the new RB303 tonearm is die-cast, but I think it's investment cast myself.

A comment by Roy Gandy said the results of the TTPSU speed controller can't be quantified. In other words, may do actually not one thing.

Still unaccounted for is the speed alteration caused by an engaged stylus.

Wayner

TONEPUB · « **Reply #136 on:** 15 Nov 2011, 04:56 pm »

Quote from: Wayner on 15 Nov 2011, 04:05 pm

There is a review by Mr. Fremer in this months Audiophile (December, Vol.34, No. 12) magazine in which he states the Rega RP3 "runs fast" by .1 to .2 rpm. He also made comments about the "quality control" of such inexpensive tables.

To that end, I know that most, if not all of the tables parts are made with CNC machines or are molded to tight tolerances, therefore, the comment is a bit ambiguous.

He also said the new RB303 tonearm is die-cast, but I think it's investment cast myself.

A comment by Roy Gandy said the results of the TTPSU speed controller can't be quantified. In other words, may do actually not one thing.

Still unaccounted for is the speed alteration caused by an engaged stylus.

Wayner

The REGA arms are in fact die cast. I've been to the factory (twice) and have seen the actual die. As for the speed error, I talked to the us importer and they said that the table measured perfect accuracy before it was sent out. The one we reviewed and a good friends RP3 (which was a random stock item from music direct) both measured 1000 hz on the nose when playing a test tone.

And, if you've listened to a pair of p3's side by side, one with ps and one without, the diff is clear. But fremer hasn't done that either.

The quality control at REGA is very high. As any decent mfr will tell you, it's always better to get it right the first time, rather than ship out defective product and have to deal with it in the field...

TomS · « **Reply #137 on:** 15 Nov 2011, 05:06 pm »

Quote from: TONEPUB on 15 Nov 2011, 04:56 pm

The REGA arms are in fact die cast. I've been to the factory (twice) and have seen the actual die. As for the speed error, I talked to the us importer and they said that the table measured perfect accuracy before it was sent out. The one we reviewed and a good friends RP3 (which was a random stock item from music direct) both measured 1000 hz on the nose when playing a test tone.

And, if you've listened to a pair of p3's side by side, one with ps and one without, the diff is clear. But fremer hasn't done that either.

The quality control at REGA is very high. As any decent mfr will tell you, it's always better to get it right the first time, rather than ship out defective product and have to deal with it in the field...

To the very casual reader, it really just sounded like someone had a new measuring toy (yes they have an app for that) and wanted to write a couple paragraphs about it

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #138 on:** 15 Nov 2011, 06:26 pm »

Seems to me that what one might be hearing in referring to the Rega's as 'fast' is due to their plinth design (plastic, or some fancy term that pretty much means plastic)

The mass tables are made of wood, mdf, aluminum or something else heavy....so energy is stored and released. Plastic, being light, will have less delay in the release of the stored energy. As we all hear so differently, and pick up on different cues, this might be heard as a benefit or a deficit of their design.

I would think this has something to do with the 'fast' sound rep that Rega tables have taken on...perhaps not much different than open baffle speaker proponents hear

TONEPUB · « **Reply #139 on:** 16 Nov 2011, 07:34 am »

Right on the money, sir!