[Wayner]

Here are the numbers:

Stevenson - average distortion: .518%, between null points: .772%
Baerwald (Lofgren A) - average distortion: .422%, between null points: .633%
Lofgren B - average distortion: .379%, between null points: .438%

Wayner

[joegator81]

i had started a thread very similar to this one... appears i passed over this in my search.

But i'm looking to move up from an un-modded 1700mkII. Sota Comet and Rega P5 have been high on my list. Right now my system is the aforementioned Technics, Shure M97xE (looking to upgrade as well, but i like the general characteristics of this cart), Nova Phenomena II, Parasound Classic pre, AVA amp, Salk songtowers, and Epic Legend sub.

What i would really like to know is how these two tables handle noise (rumble, groove noise, tics/pops etc). Also which would you recommend for my system?

[neobop]

Here are the numbers:

Stevenson - average distortion: .518%, between null points: .772%
Baerwald (Lofgren A) - average distortion: .422%, between null points: .633%
Lofgren B - average distortion: .379%, between null points: .438%

Wayner

What the numbers don't show is the distortion at beginning and end. Stevenson has lowest at the end which can help with problems there, but at the expense of the beginning. I can usually hear the alignment problems at the beginning with Stevenson.

Although Lofgren B has lowest average error, Lofgren A is lower at beginning and end and has the most even sound throughout the record. The average isn't far behind B and is the most popular alignment. Most commercial alignment devices, Geodisc, DB systems, Dennesen, etc are Loefgren A or Baerwald.
neo

[neobop]

i had started a thread very similar to this one... appears i passed over this in my search.

But i'm looking to move up from an un-modded 1700mkII. Sota Comet and Rega P5 have been high on my list. Right now my system is the aforementioned Technics, Shure M97xE (looking to upgrade as well, but i like the general characteristics of this cart), Nova Phenomena II, Parasound Classic pre, AVA amp, Salk songtowers, and Epic Legend sub.

What i would really like to know is how these two tables handle noise (rumble, groove noise, tics/pops etc). Also which would you recommend for my system?

Hi Joe,
Rumble is usually attributed to the table. The rest is usually considered more of a function of the cartridge, possibly an interface.  I can't help with a choice between these two. Doesn't the Comet come packaged with a Rega arm?  I think there are satisfied users of each. Your situation sounds similar to the Gumby. Do you have any experience with hearing either of these, perhaps a friend or dealer?
neo

[joegator81]

Hi Joe,
Rumble is usually attributed to the table. The rest is usually considered more of a function of the cartridge, possibly an interface.  I can't help with a choice between these two. Doesn't the Comet come packaged with a Rega arm?  I think there are satisfied users of each. Your situation sounds similar to the Gumby. Do you have any experience with hearing either of these, perhaps a friend or dealer?
neo

Hi Neo,
Yes the comet has the Rega 301 if i'm not mistaken but the P5 has the 700 which i believe is a much better arm. There is a rega dealer in jacksonville, which is about 3 1/2 hrs north of me. Whether they keep a P5 on hand i don't know. I'm going up that way around thanksgiving so i will give them a call. As for the Sota it will have to be a site unseen kind of deal. They will sell direct and allow returns w/in a certain time but will charge a restocking fee, not to mention shipping cost.

The reason i bring up surface noise suppression is i seem to recall a review of the comet that mentioned that it was a quiet turntable. My concern w/ the Rega is that one man's "lively" is anothers "overly bright".

I think i may try to find a clearaudio concept to audition too, as it is only $100 more than the comet.

[Wayner]

What the numbers don't show is the distortion at beginning and end. Stevenson has lowest at the end which can help with problems there, but at the expense of the beginning. I can usually hear the alignment problems at the beginning with Stevenson.

Although Lofgren B has lowest average error, Lofgren A is lower at beginning and end and has the most even sound throughout the record. The average isn't far behind B and is the most popular alignment. Most commercial alignment devices, Geodisc, DB systems, Dennesen, etc are Loefgren A or Baerwald.
neo

If you will look earlier at my posts, I show graphs. Few one at the vinylengine sport the Baerwald alignment. It clearly shows on a graph to be inferior.

W

[neobop]

Hi Wayner,
I don't see a graph for Baerwald. That's why I posted my comment. Average distortion is close - off by .043%, but better at beginning and end.

If you read the protractor guide at VE, you'll see that Baerwald is the most popular. Members there, as here, who prefer Lofgren are a vocal minority.
neo

[Wayner]

The end values of Baerwald negate any perceived improvement over Lofgren's curve because most records do not have music to the clean-out. Thru the course of the record, Lofgren's distortion values are less especially at the null points and more importantly, between the null points. Those that favor Baerwald's curve perhaps don't understand the math or the averages of the the useful playback area of the record.

I'll post the Baerwald curve when I have time to do some CAD work and the math.

Wayner

[neobop]

Many older records especially classical and jazz are recorded almost to the label. I have a few that get within 7or 8mm. What about the beginning? I don't know why you're so adamant about this, we're talking about differences way less than 1%. If your records don't go to the run-out, maybe you should calculate the nulls based on the center being further out.

What's better, the Rega or Sota?
neo

[Wayner]

Lofgren B:

 

Baerwald (Lofgren A)

 

As you can see, there are trade-offs between the 2 alignments. Baerwald does in fact have a lower initial tracking error and distortion, but soon is equaled and then bested by the Lofgren B curve, bottoming out between the 2 null points at about .8% tracking error and .45 tracking distortion, while Baerwald comes in at 1.1% tracking error and about .65% distortion.

The 2 curves then part, giving the Baerwald the winning numbers at the very end, but that is at 60mm.

In conclusion, and why I favor the Lofgren B curve over Baerwald is because the averaged overall tracking distortion and error are lower numbers, and considering the amount of music content I have in my collection that even comes close to the 60mm is almost zero.

I used to do the Baerwald alignment on my Empire, not any more.

Wayner

[bastlnut]

hallo,

i too much prefer the Loefgren B points. i even tweak the points to my own preference, being a bit further out towards the edge and about the same inner null.
it is mostly the overhang that needs to be increased and no angle change or if at all bit less toe in.

i also agree with John TCG about the SL 1200, it is overdamped and any tonearm upgrade does not correct the overdamped sound signature of the plinth.
it is truly a DJ TT. it is demeaning to use it as a point of measure because it is really not up to scratch....pun intended.
the Rega is a better point of reference because of its sonic signature incarnations and it being used as a reference by consumers and manufacturers alike.
i have said it before and risk repeating myself here, the Technics hype is just that, hype.
those who think that it is a reference are just cheating themselves, even with the so called upgrades.
i do not accept the sound, or performance of the SL 1200 as adequate for high quality, no way, no how.
has anyone noticed that the 1200 runs fast? the built in strobo gives the speed as 33.33 but an external strobo shows that it is about 1% fast....just like the rega goes a little bit fast.

getting back on topic...
after aligning to the points i want, i tweak by ear for the best  sound and use the self generated protractor as a reference only.
change the VTA and you have to tweak the alignment again....if you are being anal about the whole thing....

regards,
bas

[neobop]

I've got room in one of my 2-channel systems for another turntable. I've always owned Technics direct drive turntables in the past, but I'm considering giving belt drive a try out of curiosity. I was leaning toward a SOTA Comet, but came across the Rega P5 on sale at NeedleDoctor. Around the same price range is the new Rega RP3 as well. Would the new RP3 RB303 tonearm be any better than the RB700 on the P5? Anyone know if the performance of the RP3 surpasses the P5? From what I've read, it seems both of the Regas really need the additional TT-PSU to get the most out of them and that adds $375 to the cost. I'm open to suggestions/recommendations.

I happened to see this thread, the P5 is said to be significantly better.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=400759

I have no idea about the Comet table vs the P5, but it has the lesser arm. Without evidence to the contrary, it seems like the deals offered on the P5 are better, and allow the purchase of the power supply or controller. That is said to be vital, especially if you're used to quartz locked DD.

That's about the most light I can shed on this choice.

[Wayner]

i also agree with John TCG about the SL 1200, it is overdamped and any tonearm upgrade does not correct the overdamped sound signature of the plinth.
it is truly a DJ TT. it is demeaning to use it as a point of measure because it is really not up to scratch....pun intended.
the Rega is a better point of reference because of its sonic signature incarnations and it being used as a reference by consumers and manufacturers alike.
i have said it before and risk repeating myself here, the Technics hype is just that, hype.
those who think that it is a reference are just cheating themselves, even with the so called upgrades.
i do not accept the sound, or performance of the SL 1200 as adequate for high quality, no way, no how.
regards,
bas

Wow. You really believe that. Then the VPI Classic and Classic 3 are no good, as their plinths are way over damped, too. That also makes the Sony PS-X7 (very sought after) another over damped deck.

If you will notice all of the new and very high end TT out today, they all have heavy, in fact massive plinths, and platters. The point of which is to dampen the crap out of them, simply by using mass.

The VPI Classic has a 25 pound platter and the Classic 3 table must weigh 75 pounds. Here is a quote from VPI's website for the Classic 3:

"The Classic 3 features a ½” thick machined aluminum plinth bonded to a  1/8” steel sub plate, bonded to 2” of MDF creating a plinth which is so  massive and well damped it virtually eliminates resonance."

Pretty interesting conclusions.

Wayner

[neobop]

Different kind of damping. High mass vs compliant coupling.

Not all damping is created equal. VPI use of metal/MDF is very effective. 1200 is relatively light for portability. I believe rubber gaskets are used on the arm mount, motor unit, and rubber feet.
neo

[LM]

it is demeaning to use it as a point of measure because it is really not up to scratch....pun intended.

bastinut, I’m sorry I feel I need to bring this up but as a modified 1200 owner, I find this and other comments in your whole post to be rather insulting.  I understand from many previous posts on this and other forums that you don’t like the 1200.  Fair enough, absolutely your right and perhaps you didn’t mean your post to be personal, but by your choice of words I find it to be so.

Whilst I’m very happy with my 1200’s performance, my point here is not about defending its sound or to act as a fanboy, it’s simply to take issue with the implication that by me or anybody else making such a choice, we are personally deluded, falling for hype and making a low quality choice. I don’t participate in this forum to trash the choices of others and whilst you most certainly are entitled to your own opinion, stating that such a choice is ‘demeaning’ and ‘cheating oneself’ are very strong and seemingly elitist words.  Whether you meant it that way or not, you have applied them to anyone owning a 1200 and hence made it personal.

Assertions such as being over-damped or fast can be readily and impersonally disputed but implications of poor choice reflect directly on the chooser and that’s not nice.  So please just understand and accept that some of us may have made a 'silly' choice but would like to take part in the forum as if we have an 'insanely great' TT.

[jimdgoulding]

hallo,

i too much prefer the Loefgren B points. i even tweak the points to my own preference, being a bit further out towards the edge and about the same inner null.
it is mostly the overhang that needs to be increased and no angle change or if at all bit less toe in.

i also agree with John TCG about the SL 1200, it is overdamped and any tonearm upgrade does not correct the overdamped sound signature of the plinth.
it is truly a DJ TT. it is demeaning to use it as a point of measure because it is really not up to scratch....pun intended.
the Rega is a better point of reference because of its sonic signature incarnations and it being used as a reference by consumers and manufacturers alike.
i have said it before and risk repeating myself here, the Technics hype is just that, hype.
those who think that it is a reference are just cheating themselves, even with the so called upgrades.
i do not accept the sound, or performance of the SL 1200 as adequate for high quality, no way, no how.
has anyone noticed that the 1200 runs fast? the built in strobo gives the speed as 33.33 but an external strobo shows that it is about 1% fast....just like the rega goes a little bit fast.

getting back on topic...
after aligning to the points i want, i tweak by ear for the best  sound and use the self generated protractor as a reference only.
change the VTA and you have to tweak the alignment again....if you are being anal about the whole thing....

regards,
bas

Basti-  Hi.  Are we talkin Linn Sondek here?

[Wayner]

The SL1200/1210 does not run fast. I make/sell a strobe disc and the table is dead on. Zero drift on my strobe disc, zero drift on the Technics strobe built in to the platter. These seem to be made up stories.

Compliance damping, ha.

Also bas, if you like the Lofgren B alignment, and move the stylus "slightly" ahead, you are no longer in the Lofgren B alignment, and have made your tracking distortion much higher. To set your table to a proper alignment requires precision. Anything less only means your tracking distortions will be increased.

Wayner

[neobop]

LM,
You really shouldn't take offense. Everyone is entitled to their viewpoint. English is not every one's native tongue and even if it is, things often read differently than intended. Maybe not so much in this case.

I don't consider the 1200 to be a reference table either. Isn't yours modified? I don't necessarily agree with Bas, but he should be able to express his opinion.

I think the social club aspect is taken too far in this forum. This circle is supposed to be about record players and records. If you have a different opinion you should express it. If someone else doesn't like your record player is that demeaning to you personally?

Both Gumby and Joe are considering moving on. Maybe you could offer your opinion or experience about that. If there was no difference of opinion there wouldn't be much to talk about.

Wayner,
Loefgren B alignment requires the cart to be a little further forward compared to the other standard alignments. 
neo

[doug s.]

...i also agree with John TCG about the SL 1200, it is overdamped and any tonearm upgrade does not correct the overdamped sound signature of the plinth.
it is truly a DJ TT. it is demeaning to use it as a point of measure because it is really not up to scratch....pun intended.
the Rega is a better point of reference because of its sonic signature incarnations and it being used as a reference by consumers and manufacturers alike.
i have said it before and risk repeating myself here, the Technics hype is just that, hype.
those who think that it is a reference are just cheating themselves, even with the so called upgrades.
i do not accept the sound, or performance of the SL 1200 as adequate for high quality, no way, no how.
has anyone noticed that the 1200 runs fast? the built in strobo gives the speed as 33.33 but an external strobo shows that it is about 1% fast....just like the rega goes a little bit fast...

the technics deck is much better than the entry level rega.  nothing demeaning, no hype.  yust better music.  the only hype is the rega, "it being used as a reference by consumers and manufacturers alike".  oh ya, there's hype from naysayers that the technics sucks and is only a dj deck...  and, if anyone is wondering, i have no dog in this fight; don't own either, but have heard both...

ymmv,

doug s.

[Wayner]

Wayner,
Loefgren B alignment requires the cart to be a little further forward compared to the other standard alignments. 
neo

There is only one set of numbers to achieve a Lofgren B on a Technics SL1200/1210 to get to the null points of 70.285 and 116.604. That requires a overhang of 18.282, for a total stylus to pivot length of 233.282mm. This also puts the offset angle at 23.613°. Those are the absolute numbers for 215mm spindle to tonearm table. There are no "little farther ahead" movements.

If fact, anyone that knows anything about alignments knows that the Lofgren B alignment produces the longest arc of the three. I made this statement in an earlier post on this thread.

Here is an Excel spread sheet I did a long time ago an posted on another thread comparing overhang between Baerwald and Lofgren:

 

Wayner