[joegator81]

This slagging of Rega P3s that “run too fast” and aren’t “something good” reflects an invidious audiophile myth at best and at worst a fairly reckless slander of a turntable that’s given thousands of hi-fi consumers great and enduring pleasure for a non-megabucks cost.

This kind of casual, tossed-off, categorical dismissal is one of the least pleasant things I’m continuously encountering in the otherwise helpful and enthusiasm-based exchanges on forums like AudioCircle. It’s often perpetrated in the defense of that holy of holies, “reference” components, as it is in this example. I don’t mind tough comparisons or strong criticism of products ant brands if the critic backs it up with solid evidence — that’s a fair fight. But I’ve run into multiple dubious drive-by put-downs for every piece of gear I’ve owned. I don’t get the poser appeal of doing that. I’m sure bastinut didn’t mean to come off as mean-spirited — he was probably just in a hurry to add a postscript — but still...

Michael Fremer’s P3-24 rave ran on the cover of Stereophile in 2008. PDF link: http://www.sigsound.com/PDFs/P3_24Stereophile7_08%20.pdf

This thread debunks the P3 speed myth nicely: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-308209.html

In this months issue of stereophile, Fremer reviews the RP3 and remarks about it running too fast. In the Manufacturer's response page, Rega (I'm fairly certain its Roy Gandy) said that they run fast w/o a record on it to compensate for the platter slowing down when the record is on and the stylus is down.

I am in no way a technical pro, and i would easily characterize myself as a LP newbie, but this does seem to make sense. ::shrug::

[Wayner]

Apparently, none of the speed issue people have ever played in a band, especially an orchestra. Before computers kept the beat, the players kept it in their heads. The rhythm and pace varied by a huge degree, at least compared to the exacting speed of a computerized 1/4 measure.

Unless they heard the table having "wow", an obvious speed fluctuation issue, I doubt anyone could tell if a table is off speed by their ears. If we consider the older totally analog recordings, the chance of speed error is compounded by the master multi-channel recorder, the usual 2-track mix-down recorder and then the speed of the cutting lathe. All are certainly capable of "screwing" things up.

Wayner

[neobop]

Tempo and pitch are two different things. If someone plays out of tune, the pitch and/or harmonics are effected. This is clearly reproduced by both analogue and digital recording. I think the idea is not to create pitch discrepancies by the playback mechanism, regardless of considerations about the master recording. Nothing is perfect and one doesn't want to add imperfections if at all possible.

People who have perfect pitch are probably more numerous than one might think. Perfect pitch is perfect relative pitch. People like Ella Fitzgerald for example could sing perfectly in tune relative to the piano or accompanist. The piano could be slightly out of tune, it didn't matter. She would be in tune with it. Absolute pitch is the ability to identify exactly the frequency of a pitch or note, like middle A being at 440Hz. People with perfect pitch seem to have absolute pitch capability in varying degrees. Because someone like Ella probably heard a tuning fork numerous times, she could probably sing a note and the band could tune to her. They would probably tune to the piano though.

If a table runs consistently fast or slow, the tempo change isn't always identified immediately. It might be characterized as lively or dull, but it's not right. If a P3 is slightly fast, but runs on speed with a record on the platter, what happens with different weight records? If the torque is deliberately kept low to minimize noise, speed variations increase with tracking friction/drag. If a DD has speed correction circuitry, can sudden corrections be heard like jitter?

Sensitivity to absolute and momentary speed variations varies with individuals. You can train your ears to be more sensitive in both areas, if desired. If you ever listened to master tapes or dubs, there's a startling reality about the sound. At least some of this is pitch. There's not much you can do about eccentric records except enlarge the hole so you can center it. But exact speed is a big deal IMO. It's one of the things that separate a true reference table from a decent or ordinary one. We all have different perspectives on what's good or acceptable. Maybe we can learn from other's opinions.
neo

[doug s.]

...If a table runs consistently fast or slow, the tempo change isn't always identified immediately. It might be characterized as lively or dull, but it's not right. If a P3 is slightly fast, but runs on speed with a record on the platter, what happens with different weight records? If the torque is deliberately kept low to minimize noise, speed variations increase with tracking friction/drag. If a DD has speed correction circuitry, can sudden corrections be heard like jitter?

the rega p3 is built to a price point.  it's an ok deck, but i can't understand buying one, imo, since much better can be had for less when shopping used.  but, that's me.  it makes sense to me that rega would design it to run slightly fast, to compensate for when you are playing a record.  and, it's the stylus drag, not the record weight that will slow the thing down.  of course, everything is a compromise - at that price point, you have to pick an average speed, and different parts of a record will slow down a platter at different rates.  w/the technics, you will be much more immune to speed wariations, cuz its forte is its torque.  but, as mentioned, dd decks at this price range are not as smooth as a belt-driven deck.  it's all a compromise; at this level, i'd choose the sl1200 over the p3 if those were my only choices.  but - ymmv. 

w/price no object decks, the idea is to have speed stability regardless of drag, and to do it w/o speed correction, if possible.  thus, you see some models with mondo heavy platters, platters weighted at the periphery, fancy motor controllers, etc.  all w/the idea to have exact speed stability, and no motor cogging.

even my oracle delphi w/origin live dc motor kit is affected by stylus drag.  and this deck has a decent platter of about 8-9 lbs, w/most of its weight at the periphery.  when i set its speed w/a strobe, i do it while playing a record.  some day, if i come across a small (or large?) fortune, i might spring for something like a verdier la platine - massive platter floating in the air, courtesy of a magnetic field bearing.  very immune to stylus drag, and a wery smooth motor...  anyone have $15k?   

doug s.

[Wayner]

We all know that tempo and pitch are 2 different things. But other then the use of some tools, I doubt if anyone could even tell a 1-2% pitch or tempo change, and basically, who cares. As Long as there is not a audible wow to the music.

Middle C has a frequency of 440hz.

And tuning is not the same from record to record. They are all over the place.

Wayner

[neobop]

We all know that tempo and pitch are 2 different things. But other then the use of some tools, I doubt if anyone could even tell a 1-2% pitch or tempo change, and basically, who cares. As Long as there is not a audible wow to the music.

Middle C has a frequency of 440hz.

And tuning is not the same from record to record. They are all over the place.

Wayner

Many of us know that middle A is 440:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament

Running fast or slow changes the character of the music. I think you'd be surprised how many people could hear a speed change of 2%, right away. Set one of your tables to run 2% off, either fast or slow and play a familiar record with complex harmonic content. I think you'll hear it. The record Kind of Blue was originally released slightly slow (pitch) due to a tape recorder error. Because it is basically minor key modal blues, the character of the music might not have been changed all that much. I don't think this is always the case. Most acoustic music conforms rather well to standard tuning. Individual players might play out of tune (sometimes deliberately), but it's not the job of my table to be interpretive.

The point is, I want playback to be as accurate as possible. That includes wow and flutter, momentary speed variations and running at correct speed.
neo

[Wayner]

OK my memory failed me on 440hz. I don't really care.

But your advice on buying turntables would leave any newbie or otherwise a table that would cost thousands and thousands of dollars based on a pointless drive to have the "perfect" table. I'm pretty sure you'd fail a blind speed test.

To sit there and worry about the amount of drag a stylus puts on a record and slows it down is something just unbelievable. I guess if some perfect pitch human can't stand the speed of a Rega RP3, then go buy a $165,000 Continuum table.

Obsessive fixation on some of these turntable issues is really starting to take the fun out of it. Quit worrying about all this shit and go play some records.

Everyday it's a constant argument. Direct drive makes noises, belt drives have inaccurate speed, this alignment is better, the table has too much mass and sounds dull...what was the term...mass compliance or something like that.

Wayner

[neobop]

Wayner,
I'm not worrying or advising newbies to buy $165K record players. This thread is about an owner of a 1200, looking to try a belt driver. It naturally turned into comparisons and this discussion about speed stability. Most people want the 'best' record player for their money. Understanding issues and real world considerations, like low torque vs cogging, can only help IMO. Matter of fact, I've recommended no solutions here, only pointed out some options.

Most people don't have perfect pitch, but most people can train themselves to hear relative pitch like one instrument being in or out of tune. I'm not quibbling with the importance of wow and flutter. You're right about that. Instantaneous variations are the most audible. What's the problem with my pointing out the issues with absolute speed? Everyone here has the right to point out facts or opinions, including Bas or myself. You might not like it if I say that a Baerwald alignment is the most popular, but it is. This isn't said to be argumentative. It's said because it's the truth. You seem to think that your opinion on something like that is the only valid one. Why can't I state my opinion without your seeing it as a challenge or argument?  If you and Bas prefer Loefgren B, I don't have a problem with that. I only prefer it with longer arms.

A couple of people brought up aspects of speed stability that deserves a thread of its own. If you find some  technical discussions obsessive, why don't you let it go? Your input on this forum is invaluable. Heaven knows, I'm not infallible. Even if it's not said in a nice way, I appreciate being corrected and learning from the experience.
neo

[bastlnut]

hallo,

i agree that the source of wow is not easy to identify, and is usually not the turntable...as i have found out by way of the sheer number of TTs i have had in my fingers.
i do hear even 1% speed variance.
i use vocals for this, as opposed to piano or violins, and it is easy to hear when something does not sound right.
the Rega P3 runs fast even with the needle in the grooves and the up front and lively character is the result.
the condition of the belt of any belt drive TT will affect the speed stability when playing,
a motor controller will only help to a small degree with a sub-par belt.
the SL 1200 runs fast too, so it may be a good thing to install the aftermarket speedcontrolfader and strobo killer....as long as you can set the speed when installing the parts.

value for money is very subjective in my opinion.
reviews of all kinds about turntables in ones price range is someone elses subjective findings.
the only way to know what is the best for ones budget is to listen to the set up.
some like the Rega and others like the SL 1200....or the Thorens/Systemdek/Linn/JVC/Pioneer.....
i listen to much more expensive turntables, tonearms and cartridges than the budget being discussed here.
the speed problems as well as questions about individual component quality...like the questionable ability of the Technics tonearm or the sub-platter of the Rega are not an issue for me.
buying used will get you more for your money than buying new, but the buyer will have to be able to work on the set up and make adjustments/repairs if needed.
it comes down to mechanical ability of the one who is spending his/her money and what is pleasing to his/her ear.
my reference as to a middle of the road set up is higher up the ladder than the Rega or Technics. that is why i say that neither are good enough for me to use as a reference.
it says nothing about their quality. their quality is well known to anyone reading this or simply by surfing the net for info.

regards,
bas

[michaelhigh]

OK my memory failed me on 440hz. I don't really care.

But your advice on buying turntables would leave any newbie or otherwise a table that would cost thousands and thousands of dollars based on a pointless drive to have the "perfect" table. I'm pretty sure you'd fail a blind speed test.

To sit there and worry about the amount of drag a stylus puts on a record and slows it down is something just unbelievable. I guess if some perfect pitch human can't stand the speed of a Rega RP3, then go buy a $165,000 Continuum table.

Obsessive fixation on some of these turntable issues is really starting to take the fun out of it. Quit worrying about all this shit and go play some records.

Everyday it's a constant argument. Direct drive makes noises, belt drives have inaccurate speed, this alignment is better, the table has too much mass and sounds dull...what was the term...mass compliance or something like that.

Wayner

I agree. Go play some records is right. If you can't tolerate the vagaries of vinyl playback (very minor to me, not enough to drive me from records and TT's), go get a CD player, go get a radio tuner, get into computer audio. The key is to get what works for YOU, and it's not all that difficult unless you're prepared to make it hard on yourself. I see plenty of newbees getting satisfying sound and good advice as well. No problem, really.

[neobop]

I agree. Go play some records is right. If you can't tolerate the vagaries of vinyl playback (very minor to me, not enough to drive me from records and TT's), go get a CD player, go get a radio tuner, get into computer audio. The key is to get what works for YOU, and it's not all that difficult unless you're prepared to make it hard on yourself. I see plenty of newbees getting satisfying sound and good advice as well. No problem, really.

Hi Michaelhigh,
Did someone say that imperfections are intolerable?  What's the point, ignorance is bliss?

To make an analogy, my car doesn't perform like an exotic sports car or a luxury model, yet I can still enjoy a ride in the country. Just because someone else owns and uses higher priced and possibly better performing equipment, doesn't mean I can't enjoy what I have. Is understanding performance issues something better left unsaid?

Nothing is perfect including "state of the art" turntables. For those interested, here's a thread on the subject you might find timely. If it makes you want to abandon your table and records, maybe it's better left unread.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1320876538&&&/Turntable-speed-accuracy-

neo

[TONEPUB]

In the last ten regas I've either had in for review or set up for friends, none of them have run fast.  The last one that did was a 20 year old planar 3.  The current stuff I've run across (including my P3-24 and P9) are on the money...

If you read mikey closely, he's been pretty snarky lately.  He liked the Feickert table but felt it was slightly overpriced (it should have cost 9000 instead of 10000) and he wasn't all that hip on the asr phono stage, he liked the EAR better.

And of course, nothing is as good as his beloved continuum, which maybe ten people in the world actually OWN.

I've been surprised at how many tables we've received, even the ones with speed adjustments, have been right on straight out of the box.

[doug s.]

In the last ten regas I've either had in for review or set up for friends, none of them have run fast.  The last one that did was a 20 year old planar 3.  The current stuff I've run across (including my P3-24 and P9) are on the money...

If you read mikey closely, he's been pretty snarky lately.  He liked the Feickert table but felt it was slightly overpriced (it should have cost 9000 instead of 10000) and he wasn't all that hip on the asr phono stage, he liked the EAR better.

And of course, nothing is as good as his beloved continuum, which maybe ten people in the world actually OWN.

I've been surprised at how many tables we've received, even the ones with speed adjustments, have been right on straight out of the box.

are you talking about mikey fremer?  i like what's been written about him by arthur salvatore better than anything mikey himself has written...   

ymmv,

doug s.

[TONEPUB]

yeah....

While I appreciate MF's passion for all things analog, most people don't have 150k turntables.  I can't throw too big of a rock, as I'm about to take possession of a $60k Vitus Audio phono stage.  But I have a couple of tables that are very affordable and easily attainable as part of my reference gear (Rega P3-24, Linn LP-12) as well as a couple of sub - 1000 phono stages. 

But, he and I disagree on just about everything else.

It's just like with digital.  I've invested in a full dCS stack and even my Rhapsody stream sounds awfully good there, so it's kind of a warped perspective.  Same thing, I keep some more reasonably priced digital in the rack to keep perspective.

It would be very easy for me to preface most of my digital reviews by saying that the component in question "isn't as good as the dCS"

Again, we're all different channels on the cable box and hopefully you can glean a little knowledge from everyone that writes about this stuff.  In the end you really need to hear it in your system to see if you like it. 

[TONEPUB]

Wayner,
I'm not worrying or advising newbies to buy $165K record players. This thread is about an owner of a 1200, looking to try a belt driver. It naturally turned into comparisons and this discussion about speed stability. Most people want the 'best' record player for their money. Understanding issues and real world considerations, like low torque vs cogging, can only help IMO. Matter of fact, I've recommended no solutions here, only pointed out some options.

Most people don't have perfect pitch, but most people can train themselves to hear relative pitch like one instrument being in or out of tune. I'm not quibbling with the importance of wow and flutter. You're right about that. Instantaneous variations are the most audible. What's the problem with my pointing out the issues with absolute speed? Everyone here has the right to point out facts or opinions, including Bas or myself. You might not like it if I say that a Baerwald alignment is the most popular, but it is. This isn't said to be argumentative. It's said because it's the truth. You seem to think that your opinion on something like that is the only valid one. Why can't I state my opinion without your seeing it as a challenge or argument?  If you and Bas prefer Loefgren B, I don't have a problem with that. I only prefer it with longer arms.

A couple of people brought up aspects of speed stability that deserves a thread of its own. If you find some  technical discussions obsessive, why don't you let it go? Your input on this forum is invaluable. Heaven knows, I'm not infallible. Even if it's not said in a nice way, I appreciate being corrected and learning from the experience.
neo

All excellent points, and at this price level, (or any price level for that matter) there really is no "best" only a series of compromises that you decide which you prefer.

I used to be dead set against the SL-1200, but after seeing all the enthusiasm here and a few other places, I've really rethought it - especially after buying two of them and spending a lot of time tweaking.  I've told a number of people that I might have told to buy a belt drive table to check out a 1200.  I haven't lost any love for the P3/RP3, but I have gained new respect for the 1200.

[roscoeiii]

TONEPUB,

Can you give us an idea of the ways you see yourself and MF as being on different pages? That will certainly be helpful to help those of us reading your and his reviews and columns triangulate where you stand.

BTW, many thanks to TONEPUB for donating MusicDirect LP of your choice gift certificates to yesterday's ChiUniFi headphone meet. I was lucky enough to win one. Thinking it is time to pick up that new DSOTM, unless TONEPUB has another recommendation...

[Wayner]

Sorry neobop. Sometimes this stuff drives me nuts. I know there are many years of vinyl experience on these boards from very knowledgeable people. I guess we have to stick together the best we can. I did occasionally fight with my brother, too.

I guess you have to call it passion! Yesterday, I was trying to archive some vinyl on my CD recorder and I kept red-lining. Boy, that pisses me off when I'm almost done with a side and I bang the damn red light. I'll get over it.

Yes, these tables all have their minor faults, but I would still recommend lots of them because for the most part, they get the job done, and quite fashionably at that.

I have to admit that there is not a TT here that has not been tweaked. Perhaps that is another thread on it's own.

Wayner

[Devil Doc]

Apparently, none of the speed issue people have ever played in a band, especially an orchestra. Before computers kept the beat, the players kept it in their heads. The rhythm and pace varied by a huge degree, at least compared to the exacting speed of a computerized 1/4 measure.

Unless they heard the table having "wow", an obvious speed fluctuation issue, I doubt anyone could tell if a table is off speed by their ears. If we consider the older totally analog recordings, the chance of speed error is compounded by the master multi-channel recorder, the usual 2-track mix-down recorder and then the speed of the cutting lathe. All are certainly capable of "screwing" things up.

Wayner

Bad analogy. Keeping time in a band is one thing, it's either too fast or too slow, most listeners wouldn't know, but an off speed turntable changes the pitch of the musician's instrument, thereby really screwing up the music.

Doc.

[tomytoons]

are you talking about mikey fremer?  i like what's been written about him by arthur salvatore better than anything mikey himself has written...   

I agree. I was laughing when the NY boys were calling this guy super hero of the year at some dinner.

 

[Wayner]

Bad analogy. Keeping time in a band is one thing, it's either too fast or too slow, most listeners wouldn't know, but an off speed turntable changes the pitch of the musician's instrument, thereby really screwing up the music.

Doc.

No it doesn't. It changes the pitch of the entire recording. However, the small amounts that are talked about here (like from stylus drag) would be un-noticed by almost everyone, except for the ultra-trained ear, and I doubt many of those would notice a slight speed (and hence, pitch) change.

Wayner