[Rclark]

 From what I understand Jneutron worked at Cern and fermilab?! Might know something about wire, huh?

 Had a real nice conversation with Steve yesterday, SAS labs. That guy really knows his stuff! One of the smartest persons I've talked to in a long time. We also talked about the shadier side of the industry, both sides, even the supposed "science" people have an agenda.

 I think I still lean with the "it makes a difference" crowd despite my lack of experience. There is just so much we are still learning about the world, and physics research certainly hasn't stopped. The world used to be flat and Tyrannosaurus Rex used to be fat, lazy, and walk upright with his tail in the sand, so maybe we don't know everything there is to know about audio just yet. And Danny Richie's reputation is very sturdy.
 
 Whoever comes up with a (legitimate) new way to measure the improvements heard with cables is going to be rich.

 Hey, here's a myth I'd like busted:

 I've heard it said you need to "cycle the power" in your gear for up to a day or more, for it to sound its best and if you just turn it on fresh it won't sound as nice. This goes beyond just "warming up the gear". What's this "cycling the power" all about?

[mark funk]

I well ask my wife. She works at Fermilab. I have been there many times for lunch and met and seen many people and got a few laughs when I was talking about HiFi and cables with some of the people having lunch.



                                                                                             

[Rclark]

^

 now that is awesome.

[planet10]

I didn't see any before / after test results showing a change in distortion or noise with one power cord versus another.

You can look at the multi-park study published in affordable audio for some of that.

Noise i understand, but it is fairly well established that traditional distortion testing has little or no correlation with sonics.

dave

[doug s.]

I don't have time to read and digest 137 posts, but I did read jneutron's post. Unless I missed it, I didn't see any before / after test results showing a change in distortion or noise with one power cord versus another. Hypothesizing is all well and good, but it's hardly proof of anything. If a replacement power cord really could improve the audio passing through the connected device, you can be sure that vendors would be all over that showing graphs and data. But they never do. All they ever offer is flowery prose, and photos of fat men dancing.

As soon as someone shows hard proof of one competent power cord "sounding better" than another, I promise I'll change my opinion immediately.

--Ethan

ethan, it is possible that what makes one power cord "sound different" than another cannot be measured.  yust as it is possible that some measured differences, (ie: read speaker diffraction tests), cannot be heard.

if you heard a difference caused by changing two "competent" power cords, would you refuse to acknowledge it simply because you could not come up with any "hard proof"?

ymmv,

doug s.

[*Scotty*]

Rclark,It has been my experience with my equipment that it benefits substantially from being left on 24/7. A possible explanation for this is that the particular power supply capacitors I am using in the preamp, phono-stage and power amp loose the compacted layer of ions which is produced by the application of voltage.
 When this happens the dynamic impedance of the capacitor and by extension the power supply goes up. These is not a good thing and it is audible in my system as an increase in grain and grunge when compared to the sound when the system is left on.
YMMV.
What does your system consist of and have you heard any phenomena like this related to leaving your system on all the time vs turning it off overnight when you are not listening to it.
Scotty

[rab1234]

I used to leave all my equipment on all the time, then my shop guy told me to turn it off everyday because there is less wear and tear on the equipment (like capacitors drying up) so thats what I do now. I have never seen that video - powerful stuff.

[Rclark]

You know it does seem to sound a little ragged when first fired up. I'd love to leave my system on all the time. I do leave my cdp and dac constantly on, but my amp has a linear regulated supply, and from what I understand there (which isn't much) a supply like that draws full power all the time. Which is huge. Part of the reason it sounds so good, from what I understand. Virtue two powered by an Astron ls10a.

[Elizabeth]

The biggest Audio Myth:
Somebody else can tell you what YOU are hearing or NOT hearing.
So all the blah blah blah blah blah blah about WHATEVER is just all hot air, until YOU try it for yourself.
(though I personally do take exception to expensive crazy tweaks, As the COST to try is just too damn high. Free (or nearly free) tweaks on the other hand.. Whoo Hoo!!

And then what you are supposed to do, or not do.
Leave it all on.. turn it off, use cords, cords are a waste... You KNOW what i am writing about.

[*Scotty*]

You might try measuring the power supplies current draw when no music is playing. The power amp shouldn't be pulling much current under that condition. The power supply burns some current in it's regulators all of the time but it shouldn't be a huge percentage of the total power consumed by the power supply. While it can supply 8 amps to a load continuously it doesn't consume 8 amps when the power amp isn't playing any music.
Scotty

[Rclark]

Elizabeth you've partaken of every possible tweak under the sun if im not mistaken? Even those ion reducing stones or something of that sort, right? I think you have them wrapped around you cables or something like that.

Oh, and thanks Scotty. I might be able to borrow a meter. If it's a low enough draw i'll just leave it powered up. The supply is meant to be used with boat radar hehe.

[Albert Von Schweikert]

Only a few scientists don't know much about "why" different types of metals, winding geometry, and insulation sound "different" from each other. I have a consultant at Delphi Aerospace who designs wiring harnesses for space craft and the military.  He says that the measurements of inductance, capacitance, and resistance and their ratios can be easily measured with a simple $15,000 LCR bridge, and that various interconnect and speaker cables have measurements that can be 300% different from each other.  Since inductors, capacitors, and resistors are used to make speaker crossover filter circuits, it would be amazing if different ratios of these reactive components DIDN'T result in differences in sound!

From what I understand Jneutron worked at Cern and fermilab?! Might know something about wire, huh?

 Had a real nice conversation with Steve yesterday, SAS labs. That guy really knows his stuff! One of the smartest persons I've talked to in a long time. We also talked about the shadier side of the industry, both sides, even the supposed "science" people have an agenda.

 I think I still lean with the "it makes a difference" crowd despite my lack of experience. There is just so much we are still learning about the world, and physics research certainly hasn't stopped. The world used to be flat and Tyrannosaurus Rex used to be fat, lazy, and walk upright with his tail in the sand, so maybe we don't know everything there is to know about audio just yet. And Danny Richie's reputation is very sturdy.
 
Whoever comes up with a (legitimate) new way to measure the improvements heard with cables is going to be rich.

 Hey, here's a myth I'd like busted:

 I've heard it said you need to "cycle the power" in your gear for up to a day or more, for it to sound its best and if you just turn it on fresh it won't sound as nice. This goes beyond just "warming up the gear". What's this "cycling the power" all about?

[Ethan Winer]

Sorry for the delay guys. My computer died last Friday, and it would have cost more to fix than it's worth. So I bought a new PC yesterday, and have been going through "New computer hell" getting everything set up again.

ethan, it is possible that what makes one power cord "sound different" than another cannot be measured.  yust as it is possible that some measured differences, (ie: read speaker diffraction tests), cannot be heard.

Yes, for sure things can be measured that can't be heard. Test gear can measure artifacts 120 dB below the music, and nobody can hear stuff that soft. But the opposite is not true. Everything that can be heard can be measured. Even if you don't know what to look for, a null test will reveal all differences.

if you heard a difference caused by changing two "competent" power cords, would you refuse to acknowledge it simply because you could not come up with any "hard proof"?

Of course I'd acknowledge a difference if I heard one! Who wouldn't? But the same applies to those who believe power cords matter. If I switch cords a few times and you can't tell which is which without looking, would you acknowledge that the cord made no difference? Do you or anyone else here live close enough to me to get together in person and actually test that?

--Ethan

[doug s.]

...Yes, for sure things can be measured that can't be heard. Test gear can measure artifacts 120 dB below the music, and nobody can hear stuff that soft. But the opposite is not true. Everything that can be heard can be measured. Even if you don't know what to look for, a null test will reveal all differences.

wow.  i thought i was arrogant.   

Of course I'd acknowledge a difference if I heard one! Who wouldn't? But the same applies to those who believe power cords matter. If I switch cords a few times and you can't tell which is which without looking, would you acknowledge that the cord made no difference? Do you or anyone else here live close enough to me to get together in person and actually test that?

i would absolutely acknowledge whether or not i can hear a difference.  most times i cannot.  i believe cords make a difference, but not so much that i would be willing to spend even $100 for a single power cord...  simply not worth the money, for what ever last degree of improvement there may be.  imo of course!  you can find excellent diy cords for ~$50 or so, and i believe they will prowide you w/all the goodness that can be squeezed out of a power cord.

this is similar to my feelings about ic's as well.  mebbe there are ic's >$100 that can prowide a smidge better sound than what i use, but it's not even worth wasting time to find out whether or not it's true, imo.  forget about wasting money!  for me, i will stick w/either used alphacore tq2-ag, micropurl-ag, or these:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=98179.msg992513#msg992513

ymmv,

doug s.

[face]

Dude, that's awesome. I hope we still have something in the room that runs on the grid for you besides the amps for the servo subs. 

I can't wait to bring a power cord down to your room too. 

We will all see who really hears what now huh?

Oh, and don't worry about room traffic and finding a slow period or something. Our room is full of people from the word go. We all get together after hours to listen, tweak, and compare stuff.

Bring or find someone with a Peachtree Nova, they're very susceptible to PC changes, especially when used as an integrated. 

[Rclark]

Let's keep it clean . No suggesting people are being arrogant or the like. If you disagree, merely debate, explain why you think that person is wrong. Too often these threads disintegrate and ultimately people  learn nothing.

This is a somewhat esoteric subject.

let this be the one thread on the subject that doesn't get locked.

[Quiet Earth]

I don't think we are learning anything anyway, but I get the gist of what you're saying. I think it has been fair so far. I also think that doug's jab at Ethan was in good taste. Did you see the  attached to it??? Doug is a fair man.

If I may say so without hurting anyone's feelings (or sounding like a jerk), some of Ethan's statements seem to be written with the sole intention of getting people fired up and arguing. That's OK, but you get what you get when you do that. (Hey, I should know  ) I don't think he has proved anything really useful to us yet, but he has certainly gotten everyone's attention.

I would like to learn more about his sound system and how/why he chose the components that he uses to listen to music. I hope that he does indeed listen to music like we do (as consumers/music lovers, not producers/engineers). That would make the conversation more relevant to this forum.

[sebrof]

I would like to learn more about his sound system and how/why he chose the components that he uses to listen to music. I hope that he does indeed listen to music like we do (as consumers/music lovers, not producers/engineers). That would make the conversation more relevant to this forum.

Go to Ethan's website, and to the Real Traps (his company) website Acoustics Info page

http://www.ethanwiner.com/index.htm
http://www.realtraps.com/info.htm

[JerryM]

It's about myths, right? I, too, have no desire to debate how long Rumpelstiltskin was asleep, or how big Paul Bunyan really was.

The myth theme rocks. 

Have fun,

Jerry

[Steve]

What is interesting is that I have yet to see masking distortion has been directly discussed. Masking distortion affects the soundstage development, depth, width, placement etc.  Once the speakers have been set we have a great system, then we can test different electronic gear for effects.

Although an instrument can measure harmonic and intermodulation distortions, and noise to -120db or so, that is about it.
Accurate resolution measurements within .05db or .1db frequency response variations and correlated to perceived effects has not been demonstrated.

But we do know what happens in some systems when we connect a capacitive coupled preamplifier to a 100k input Z amplifier and then change the amp's input Z to about 20k ohms. The bass response and masking distortion will be different evidenced by a changing of soundstage, depth, width, inner detail etc.
One will perceive more low level information with the 20k input Z than with the 100k input Z setup because less bass has masked less low level musical information.
Yet one has changed the low frequency response at 20hz by less than 0.05db.

If the cancellation differences are not tied to the music playing, we will not hear any at all due to the short time period , little energy produced, or other problems.
 
This was found in a Japanese study when the music's natural ultra sonic harmonics were added. The hospital's PET and EEG scans measured quite different brain activity with vs without the ultra high harmonics. Yet by itself, the ultra highs did not cause a change in brain measurements. Nor was just the ultrasonics perceived/heard by listeners.
However, ultrasonics do change the rise time of the music and were perceived. It only takes a 2us to 5us change to be perceived.
(Jneutron and I have both discussed papers demonstrating that 2us (paper written some 30 years ago) to 5us timing change (phase change) is perceived.)

So far I have yet to see measurements presented on any forum that refutes the hospital PET and EEG measurements. However, on AVS forum one "scientist" got caught altering the test by posting that headphones were used and claiming the test was worthless. However, headphones were not used but tweeters some 8 feet away. (His friends made no attempt to correct him over this ethics issue.)

In conclusion, we have virtually no correlation between measurements and perceived sound. Maybe some day in the future.

ps. Forgot to add that DA, DF, harmonic distortion of capacitors are  not clearly measured by sophisticated instruments (polyester, ceramic, bipolar, and electrolytics are. See "Picking Capacitors", 1980 article by Walter Jung and Richard Marsh as an example.). Yet DA is measured by a high impedance voltmeter, at least to some extent.

Cheers.