[Danny Richie]

Hey you are in 2012.    You are just down the hall from me.

[AJinFLA]

Hey you are in 2012.    You are just down the hall from me.

That's the good news. The bad news is that I'm going to swap your fancy cord for a Home Depot extension cord when you're not looking, then have you go on to explain to me how great it sounds .
Already told Dave I'm bringing my demo cd to your room, maybe early Fri or Sun when it's slow...assuming it slows

cheers,

AJ

[bunnyma357]

I don't need the believers to feel sorry for me. Those that ignore science are doomed to waste a lot of money.

Doc

But the science shows that if you believe a difference is likely - you will likely hear it. Not believe you hear it, but actually tangibly hear a difference.  I look for high value things that will return a tangible difference - I have my bias between the quality I am willing to pay for, and the results I expect, and usually they line up exactly as I would expect - I don't care if this is my perception, or "real" - the end result is I hear the difference and it is 100% real to me.

There are times when this doesn't work, and I have to figure out a new game plan, but those are few and far between. I say embrace the "foibles" of being human and exploit them, rather than trying to disprove  that what I "hear" is what I hear.

I also haven't seen an optical illusion that isn't cable of "tricking" my brain into seeing something that clearly isn't "true" - I'm happy to go with what I experience over what I know.

For me "value" is high on the bias list, so minor free or low-cost changes have a tangible difference to me, that may be beyond what they actually achieve -  and I will enjoy better sound without wasting money.

Just a little different way of using the same scientific data. I don't need to know what is real - I just need to hear the best sound I can - and my brain is quite open to trickery.


Jim C

[Danny Richie]

That's the good news. The bad news is that I'm going to swap your fancy cord for a Home Depot extension cord when you're not looking, then have you go on to explain to me how great it sounds .
Already told Dave I'm bringing my demo cd to your room, maybe early Fri or Sun when it's slow...assuming it slows

cheers,

AJ

Dude, that's awesome. I hope we still have something in the room that runs on the grid for you besides the amps for the servo subs. 

I can't wait to bring a power cord down to your room too. 

We will all see who really hears what now huh?

Oh, and don't worry about room traffic and finding a slow period or something. Our room is full of people from the word go. We all get together after hours to listen, tweak, and compare stuff.

[MaxCast]

this thread is already questionable as it is.  Let's keep name calling out of it.

[Rclark]

Uh... I"m so torn. See here's someone who's opinion I trust, Danny, telling me another thing.

FYI, Ethan wasn't selling anything in the vid, in fact I don't think he talked about room treatment at all. It's a really great video, you should actually watch it.

 The part where "JJ" talks about fooling audiophiles and EE's into choosing a messed up, burnt out McCintosh tube amp against a cheap transisitor amp in a fake AB comparison was pretty telling. And the part where Miss Crumb performs that trick where you think you're hearing the word Legislature when in truth the S is removed....

 The same effect can be done visually as well.

 But his points, Ethan's, on placebo effect and thinking you're hearing an improvement with a power cable is quite telling. After seeing that Furutech cd demagnetizer I'm going to hold off on power cables and such until I see an evidence for them.

 Again, I'm torn, because Danny is the MAN, obviously.

 

[neekomax]

I think you'd be surprised how much real science goes into the production of a lot (not all) of these top level cables. You just aren't going to see it made public because the findings are proprietary knowledge.

I'd be willing to accept that, but....

How can you explain that million dollar professional studios don't use special cables at all. So the signal has traveled through tons of 'stock' cabling before being recorded, only to be played back with special cables that do what, add resolution that was never there in the first place? (Not to mention the power lines before the sockets in your house, and the 'normal' wiring on the inside of components themselves.)

Even the cables that are used for mic'ing vocals with $20,000 microphones are nothing special. Are these audiophile cable technologies so proprietary that they haven't made it to the professional engineers and producers yet?

Secret indeed!   

[neekomax]

On a related note, I thought one of the more interesting parts of the video were the demos that EW did introducing noise at various volumes. Noise seemed pretty much inaudible to me as high as -60 db.

This says to me that, even if there are measurable differences in distortion/jitter/noise attributed to gear/cables at, say, -100 db, it is just not worth spending money to correct/address/'upgrade', because that is just miles below the threshold of audibility.

Isn't it all about 'audibility', this audio thing?

[Davey]

Isn't it all about 'audibility', this audio thing?

(Well, we'll see if this message gets deleted also.)

It's primarily about making money.....and nothing wrong with that.
If it were anything but then all this proprietary cable "technology" would be shared, wouldn't it? 

Dave.

[Rclark]

The comparison of a $25 soundblaster soundcard to other sources was interesting as well.

[neekomax]

The comparison of a $25 soundblaster soundcard to other sources was interesting as well.

Yes, thought so too.

But that one only demonstrated inaudibility. The noise demo showed audibility and inaudibility, so one could really experience inaudibility more readily after having actually heard the distortion. It was a good comparison. 

[Dandy]

I'd be willing to accept that, but....

How can you explain that million dollar professional studios don't use special cables at all. So the signal has traveled through tons of 'stock' cabling before being recorded, only to be played back with special cables that do what, add resolution that was never there in the first place? (Not to mention the power lines before the sockets in your house, and the 'normal' wiring on the inside of components themselves.)

Even the cables that are used for mic'ing vocals with $20,000 microphones are nothing special. Are these audiophile cable technologies so proprietary that they haven't made it to the professional engineers and producers yet?

Secret indeed! 

On a more polite note. Studios are on the recording end of it. They use balanced cables to reduce noise. That is really all they need. All their tweaking is done with mics and on the sound board and including mic pre amps.

We are the on the playback end of it. We use cables to reduce noise and tweak our sound stage. Two completely different scenarios are at play here and don't reflect on one another.

[sebrof]

On a related note, I thought one of the more interesting parts of the video were the demos that EW did introducing noise at various volumes. Noise seemed pretty much inaudible to me as high as -60 db.

This says to me that, even if there are measurable differences in distortion/jitter/noise attributed to gear/cables at, say, -100 db, it is just not worth spending money to correct/address/'upgrade', because that is just miles below the threshold of audibility.

Isn't it all about 'audibility', this audio thing?

I don't know, it would be difficult for me to come to that conclusion by watching a Youtube video but if it works for you.

I saw that video years ago and didn't watch it again when I saw this post so I'm going by memory for the most part. I really like Ethan and his no-nonsense approach. He certainly calls them as HE sees them. He also has a ton of great info on his website. The issue I have is that I believe there is so much we don't know about how we hear, and add to that the complexity of music it seems simplistic to say "It's right here measured by this microphone."
We have drug sniffing dogs at the airports because we haven't anything better for the job. I don't believe we have anything better for the job of interpreting music than ourselves. The problem is that it's so difficult to determine the results.

[neekomax]

On a more polite note. Studios are on the recording end of it. They use balanced cables to reduce noise. That is really all they need. All their tweaking is done with mics and on the sound board and including mic pre amps.

We are the on the playback end of it. We use cables to reduce noise and tweak our sound stage. Two completely different scenarios are at play here and don't reflect on one another.

Was there something impolite in what I said? If so, I apologize. Please let me know so that I can avoid such gaffes in the future.

Balanced cables are used in studios, true. So are noise gates. But from what I've read, there is more claimed when listening to boutique cables than merely noise reduction. Terms like 'clarity', 'improved imaging', 'improved soundstage', and 'PRaT' are often used, no? These are not all simply related to noise reduction, as far as I can tell. Rather, they describe various desirable qualities of a sound system's output that seem beyond the ken of cabling.

Also...

Are there not high end balanced audiophile interconnects? By your lights, if they were balanced, wouldn't that negate the need for them to be 'high-end'? Couldn't they just be regular balanced cables, like the studios use?

[Danny Richie]

Uh... I"m so torn. See here's someone who's opinion I trust, Danny, telling me another thing.

Those same guys will tell you that all those special crossover parts I like so much will make no difference either. So, I used a pair of stock speakers from Behringer as a test bed and installed an identical crossover using those special parts. And I have sent them around on tour. To no surprise almost everyone easily pics the crossover with the higher quality parts as being clearly better. Another person just posted impressions today:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=96514.msg990660#msg990660

All you have to do is listen.

I did the same thing with Dave's Majik Buss. I sent one of those Majik Busses and a good power cable out there free of charge to anyone that wanted to demo one. Funny thing is that about 90% of the people that tried them, bought them.

So if you are ever really curious about this stuff and want to listen for yourself, then let me know and I'll send you something.

How's that?

FYI, Ethan wasn't selling anything in the vid, in fact I don't think he talked about room treatment at all. It's a really great video, you should actually watch it.

I watched the first of it but was put off by statements that were not at all true.

I agree with them on many things though. Stupid stuff like brilliant pebbles and the like are very ridiculous.

The part where "JJ" talks about fooling audiophiles and EE's into choosing a messed up, burnt out McCintosh tube amp against a cheap transisitor amp in a fake AB comparison was pretty telling.

You can fool some of the people some of the time.

And the part where Miss Crumb performs that trick where you think you're hearing the word Legislature when in truth the S is removed....

I didn't go for that one. That didn't fool me at all. I was more surprised that anyone else heard otherwise.

But his points, Ethan's, on placebo effect and thinking you're hearing an improvement with a power cable is quite telling. After seeing that Furutech cd demagnetizer I'm going to hold off on power cables and such until I see an evidence for them.

That argument really isn't valid for all applications either. Some people expect to hear a difference and do, some people don't expect to hear any difference and they still do anyway.

I once thought or questioned that something like a power cable would really make any difference. I was not expecting the results that I heard. The results were unquestionable and repeatable. So in a case like that it is not possible to cry placebo effect.

[sebrof]

And the part where Miss Crumb performs that trick where you think you're hearing the word Legislature when in truth the S is removed....

 

Do an internet search for McGurk Effect (I linked it for you guys 'cause you're all so lazy ). I think this is along the same lines as Miss Crumb.
The McGurk is whack - You hear what you think you should be hearing. On the surface it shows that if you think something will sound better/different then it will. Plecebo in action (not really plecebo, but close enough).
My take on it is that the way we interpret our environment is so complex, and our brains are such a mystery that it's just not that easy to predict and determine what we hear vs. what we think we hear.
Just something to chew on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0

[Danny Richie]

This says to me that, even if there are measurable differences in distortion/jitter/noise attributed to gear/cables at, say, -100 db, it is just not worth spending money to correct/address/'upgrade', because that is just miles below the threshold of audibility.

These guys are looking at a sound that is specific and pushing it down to a level that is hard to hear. Is it hard to hear because we can't hear that low, or because it is now at a level that it is covered up by everything else?

Look at it a different way. What if we take the noise floor (this is across the board noise level) and we go from a 50db level to a 40db level. Now how audible is that? Try listening with or without your air conditioner on.

How about the effects of a capacitor? Look at extremes. The speaker has an electrolytic cap on the tweeter. It smears the signal to some degree. You replace it with a poly cap with a faster discharge rate. Now the signal sounds much cleaner. Hey guess what. The amplitude is the same and it looks identical on a measured frequency response.

If it measures the same but doesn't sound the same then you could be measuring the wrong thing.

[neekomax]

These guys are looking at a sound that is specific and pushing it down to a level that is hard to hear. Is it hard to hear because we can't hear that low, or because it is now at a level that it is covered up by everything else?

Look at it a different way. What if we take the noise floor (this is across the board noise level) and we go from a 50db level to a 40db level. Now how audible is that? Try listening with or without your air conditioner on.

How about the effects of a capacitor? Look at extremes. The speaker has an electrolytic cap on the tweeter. It smears the signal to some degree. You replace it with a poly cap with a faster discharge rate. Now the signal sounds much cleaner. Hey guess what. The amplitude is the same and it looks identical on a measured frequency response.

If it measures the same but doesn't sound the same then you could be measuring the wrong thing.

I imagine you're correct about all of that. I must, of course, defer to those who have far greater experience and knowledge than myself in matters of scientific expertise (of which I have absolutely none).

My point is not, "Nothing makes any difference in sound quality". Otherwise, we would just listen to clock radios and be happy about it.

My point is that measurements of things that don't appear to be readily audible under normal listening conditions, such as digital distortion far below the typical in-room noise floor, seem to only serve to make it seem like we need gear/cables/tweaks that perhaps only make us feel good but don't, in fact, improve the actual sound of a system.

I know I'm number 5,673,998 to raise this point, but that demo of audible noise really made me realize just how small some of these distortion values really are.

It would be nice to know for sure where exactly to put one's money in order to get the most audible improvement per dollar spent. I guess that's really the point?

[AJinFLA]

Ok, I actually took the time to watch the video and here is my professional opinion: Poppy Crum is pretty hot...and then there are a couple geeks blabbing about sound or something like that. If you guys saw it differently you're all a bunch of dorks.

cheers,

AJ

 

[JohnR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0

Hey that's pretty interesting.