[planet10]

jneutron in this post illustrates why there certainly is a possibility of the audio changing, particularily with Class AB power amplifiers.

The above is essentially the same as what Steve is saying in reply #52. And that is that the current draw of the devices power supply can modulate the input signal thru the power cable.

dave

[Steve]

jneutron in this post illustrates why there certainly is a possibility of the audio changing, particularily with Class AB power amplifiers.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/194948-how-do-power-leads-make-difference-sound-9.html#post2703719

Once filtered of the "no way they could possibly make a difference" there is some interesting discussion in the thread. (i py attention whenever jneutron or Simom7000 post of these kinds of things)

dave

Yep, Jneutron also discussed a similar issue on AVS forum, and I on page 3 of this thread. There is no scientific doubt whatsoever that signal current from both left and right channels "travel through" pin1 power ground wire between two (or even three plus components), and mixes. The amount of mixing depends upon several factors. The issues of such would be focus, image smear, location etc.

I also discussed an experiment one can perform, and the results we obtained.

Cheers.

[Steve]

The above is essentially the same as what Steve is saying in reply #52. And that is that the current draw of the devices power supply can modulate the input signal thru the power cable.

dave

Hi Dave,

I actually stated something but you and Jneutron make a valid point. But I may not have been clear in making my point. My bad Dave.
 
My point is that the ground wire of the AC power cord of two (or more) components is in parallel with the interconnect cable shields.

Since some of the output musical signal current returns through the IC shields, a portion of the musical signal current from both channels  also returns through the AC power ground wire (pin1). We must respect Kirchoff's current laws to be scientific. 

I see your (Jneutron's) point in AB operation as the current draw through the power cord changes in a rough way as to signal changes. A lot depends upon the DC power supply filtering system vs current draw etc.

By the way, the reverse is also true. One can change the signal current ratio between IC shields and pin1 ground wire by changing interconnect cables. It works both ways.

Cheers.

Steve

[Zero]

Danny,

Too right you are.  After all, its common knowledge that all of the chocolate used in today's ice cream is sourced from the same cocoa farm.  It's laughable how these manufacturers of so called 'fine chocolates' claim that their product tastes better, when on a molecular level, it's all the same shit.  I mean seriously... how can the EXACT same chocolate used in Breyers mint oreo ice cream taste any different, let alone better than some exotic Gelato-style ice cream? Pure BS. 

And don't get me started on the whole milk ordeal...  The whole grain-fed versus corn-fed cattle and its effect on taste is complete snake oil. 

It's science people. SCIENCE!   *crawls back under my rock* 

[planet10]

I see your (Jneutron's) point in AB operation as the current draw through the power cord changes in a rough way as to signal changes.

Roughly yes... current will only be drawn when the instantaneous voltage of the rectified AC current in above the current voltage stored in the PS capacitors.

dave

[Steve]

Roughly yes... current will only be drawn when the instantaneous voltage of the rectified AC current in above the current voltage stored in the PS capacitors.

dave

As I stated, a rough correlation, and musical frequency related as well, since much less power is normally consumed in mid/highs than in bass regions. Both amplitude and frequency related.

Cheers.

[sebrof]

I also discussed an experiment one can perform, and the results we obtained.

Cheers.

Steve - Can you point us to the experiment and results?
Thanks

[eclein]

Never under estimate the value of room treatments.

However, I really feel sorry for those guys that want to claim things like power cables make no different. That they make no difference is actually the myth.

Don't get too caught up in there rhetoric.

I'd love to have those guys over for some simple comparisons of the things they claim make no difference.

That statement above in Maroon is from a man whose life revolves around listening and his ability to listen. That ability to hear differences in sound has garnered him awards I believe and a reputation as a fine artist in the field of crossover design and speaker design in general. I'm going with what he says based on the reputation he has and after hearing a few designs he created because I think he actually has a CLUE!!!
 I don't think I'm wrong on this one at all.

[face]

Ethan, any opinion on jneutron's testing? 

Lastly, to be fair, there is ample evidence that there are scoundrels on both sides of the isle.

+1

[Steve]

Steve - Can you point us to the experiment and results?
Thanks

Our own, decades ago. Also, if one inspects very old components, one will often find 4 deck switches which switch both hot and cold inputs, to avoid this problem.

Cheers.

[bladesmith]

Modulation can not be changed by the receivers power supply..

[Elizabeth]

Audio Myths:
Powercords make a difference/ powercords can't make any difference
Cables are cables/ all wires sound different
Tubes suck/ SS sucks
CDs are better/ CDs are worse
Experience/ theory
yadda yadda yadda...

[bladesmith]

Modulation can not be changed by the receivers power supply..

(sorry, can't perpetuate myths, only facts..  )

[Letitroll98]

Letitroll98, While many companies do not manufacture the cable they use, many do have a cable built to their design specifications and it is unique to their company and not just wire "off the shelf".
To have a cable built to your specs usually involves a minimum run of 10,000 ft. which amounts to a large capitol outlay for a cable you hope someone will buy. When you figure in special manufacturing procedures involved in guarantying meeting an OFC spec and the addition of PTFE insulation the cost per foot goes up substantially.
 Granted all of this expense still does not insure a superior sounding cable is produced but it does partially explain the cost incurred by some manufacturers,which is of course passed on to their customers.

Hi Scotty, a little late with the reply, the discussion has gone off in another tangent, but I thought your well considered post deserved a reply.  To the others, sorry for the redirect.

Actually I'm pretty familiar with sourcing bulk components for manufacturing and have priced out custom cable materials.  Your 10,000' min is right in the ballpark, but nobody is retooling their line for that small of a run, they just adjust the material spec.  So the added cost is noticeable, but not stratospheric, ballpark is 10-30% additional over catalog items.  Yes, the capitol outlay is significant, but not so much when considering per piece cost.  Economy of scale comes into play, if you're not selling a couple thousand cables per month, the cost of money adds something with inventory sitting there, but that's business.  Finally, although the big European houses have maintained high prices, sourcing from China cuts the cost enormously, well into the 60% less range, sometimes more.  Audio cables are such a tiny market that I don't know if Mundorf would notice anybody switching to Shenzhen or Zhongshan.

You also hinted at the big cost drivers, capitalization, packaging, warehousing, fixed costs, advertising, and not least of all, all the cash shoved into the personal golden parachutes of the old line cable guys.  My point being the internet guys have little to none of this, faster, leaner, better, and yes, cheaper.  Older companies at the end of their bell curve, overweight and run by beancounters.  Innovation and new ideas are from bright new startups, where the designer is the company.  Just sayin'.     

I have been experimenting with cable designs since the early 1980s and it has always been very inexpensive to to roll your own cables even allowing for the use of "Audio Jewelry" connectors.
The only advice I have is to try to borrow some examples of the better regarded cables out there even if they are expensive.
 See for your self what people are talking about. Sometimes you can buy a better cable than you can build if you can get a good one on the used market. Frequently you can turn them over after trying them out and loose next to nothing.
 Just because it's cheap doesn't make it better. It just means you have a smaller hole in your wallet when it ends up sounding like crap.
Scotty

I agree 100%.  I've followed that same path for about as long as you have.  Perhaps great minds do think alike.   

[wushuliu]

For every audio component that I've spent time researching there are people who say 'there is no difference', be it speakers dacs amps pres cables tubes, etc etc.; strangely their criteria usually differ from each other but one thing they are sure of is unless that component is defective or badly designed there are no appreciable gains to be made. Yet I rarely read anyone recommending people to just go to Radio Shack and Best Buy and buy whatever meets the basic requirements. Never. Despite the fact that this would be the most logical and cost-effective choice for many if not most audiophiles. No, instead it's this and that makes no difference 'beyond the criteria I have established' and btw you should get this or that product which usually still costs a chunk of money EXCEPT the designer or philosophy behind said component falls in line with aforesaid crier's audio beliefs facts. If there was some consensus both within and without forums that I could discern I would be more convinced, but always seems to me that the skeptical Han Solos usually have you spending as much as the touchy-feely audio jedis on the other side (yes I just got the box set!).

[rab1234]

One method I employed months ago was installing a MIT Z Stabilizer and (2) MIT Z Cord II power cord. Frankly I was more than suprized at the immediate improvement in audio as well as video quality. Now I may have had a grounding problem and I would like to try it on a system that has been checked. After that I installed hospital grade outlets / no special filter circutry (Home Depot for I think $6.00 each or so) I perceived additional improvement (slight). I have always had decent interconnectes and have never really tried any of the cost no object variety. My experience with amps has proved to me my speakers could reach new levels. These are examples of changes that in my mind made pretty big differences. I'm not a believer of a watt is a watt or a bit is a bit. 

[rollo]

  Back to topic.

Audio Myths

1 You neeed to spend mega bucks to have a great system
2 The best component is ? There is no best.
3 Adding an expensive cap to a circuit is better than selecting parts with syngery.
4 AC quality will not affect the sound
5 Tubes are better thab SS
6 SS is better than tubes.
7 Low distortion relates to good sound
8 last but not least . The source is the most important component.

   My take.


charles
SMA

[Ethan Winer]

jneutron in this post illustrates why there certainly is a possibility of the audio changing, particularily with Class AB power amplifiers.

I don't have time to read and digest 137 posts, but I did read jneutron's post. Unless I missed it, I didn't see any before / after test results showing a change in distortion or noise with one power cord versus another. Hypothesizing is all well and good, but it's hardly proof of anything. If a replacement power cord really could improve the audio passing through the connected device, you can be sure that vendors would be all over that showing graphs and data. But they never do. All they ever offer is flowery prose, and photos of fat men dancing.

As soon as someone shows hard proof of one competent power cord "sounding better" than another, I promise I'll change my opinion immediately.

--Ethan

[rollo]

  Just curious about the testing Shunyata conducted with their power cords. We all have seen the advertisement in the magazines.
  Are they lying ? Are they accurate ? One day we decided to try using a dry choke in the power suply of a preamp. So Dave Slagle a transformer guru made one and replaced the cap with the choke. before the listening test all present [ which inclided , Engineers a reviewer and DIY guys] were saying no way would this choke in the powwer supply change the sound. Just no way !
  To everyones amazement the sound improved. Fuller, more dynamic and improved tonality. Dave Slagle stated that he had to rethink his Engineering logic cause "This makes no sense to me" We heard what we heard. All agreed that the choke improved the sound dramtically for the good. It was a tough day for the engineering crowd but they heard what they heard which cannot be denied. I had a good laugh and good time that day.


charles
SMA
 

[konut]

I As soon as someone shows hard proof of one competent power cord "sounding better" than another, I promise I'll change my opinion immediately.

--Ethan

I enjoy jneutrons posts because of the sense of humor he brings to, what can be, some pretty dry science, complete with math. While I will not pretend to understand everything discussed, I do trust his conclusions because there are other audio/electrical engineers I know, and trust, who think that he is THE MAN. What jneutron concludes, with his calculations, is that PCs can sound "different". "Sounding better" is a subjective term and would seem to dilute the thrust of your contention of the "science only" argument. "Different" my be better or worse depending on the individual doing the listening.