GreenGlue and OSB: The Apartment MEGA-Project!

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Audiosmoot

GreenGlue and OSB: The Apartment MEGA-Project!
« on: 5 Aug 2011, 07:57 am »
I am about to build a room-within-a-room. I live in an apartment building with neighbors to all sides. My bedroom is going to be my theater-room. I will build a huge box with initially 12 layers of OSB and 6 layers of Green-Glue by taking 2 OSB (4x8) each and sandwiching them with Green-Glue then layering these pre-made sandwiches. Eventually I'll add-on until I have up to 24 layers (about 1 foot thick total). This box will be decoupled from the floor, wall and sealing, and have a custom-made (by yours-truly) sound-tight door. This box will require approximately 350 boards for the 12-layer initial version, which with the cost of the GG, sealant, support-beams, hardware, etc. will reach almost 5k (and this is the cheapest option I could find!). I have designed it to be dissembled when I relocate. The room is currently 11.7 feet squared, with an additional attached open closet-space of 5x7 feet. Upon completion the new room will be 10 feet squared (then 9 feet after 24 layers) with an additional side-space of about 3.5x5.5 feet. I'm going to be showing pictures for all to see the process, to begin in a week or a month dependent on personal obligations this August. I've considered this from many angles including oxygen availability (essentially air-tight), climate-control, safety concerns (can I hear that fire-alarm?), connectivity (cell-phone signal when inside?), and of course what so small a space will do for my equipment. Feel free to comment now before I commit!

About me and my system:

I have wanted a real system most of my life, am 32 and am only just now purchasing my first system. Previously I've owned only $250 Walmart boom boxes. I got rid of my car, live above work and with the money I'm saving...Now I have a pair of BG Radia 520s (the original version--briefly dubbed 520DX), a matching 220 center, a pair of Acoustic Technology's Classic Series 3" single-drivers, am looking at a Bryston 2-Speaker Switching Unit and/or a Luxman 3-way (the AS-55), am looking at a REL G1 sub (or Velodyne DD+ or JLA Fathom for the room-correction), have a Cary Audio CAA-1 Amp, am wanting to purchase a Cairn KO-2, am looking at Jungson WG 80watt pure-A Power Amp (also called Hedo and Caprio), am wanting to purchase a pair of EVS balanced ultimate attenuators, am (for now) taking the Audio Critic route of 'Radio Shack philosophy' cabling, am waiting for the Outlaw Audio 978, am considering the Oppo 95 (region/zone free), am considering the HRT Music-Streamer Pro (but the MSII+ just received a major upgrade and it looks like the "pro" will be a step-down until it is likewise upgraded--and apparently the company is in no rush to do so), am looking at a Metrum Acoustics Octave (but really want to wait for a balanced version--I've decided to go balanced from the start), am about to purchase the above-mentioned 5-9k in soundproofing equipment to build a room-within-a-room in my apartment (and about 1k in power-tools to do it), am looking at getting some Vienna Acoustics Schonberg speakers, considering a GoldPoint amp and source switch-boxes, stands for my center channel already bought, I essentially have cable-isolators (because the ones I've seen look just like these huge ceramic pieces used on electrical poles--and after Hurricane Ike a few came into my apartment--neat!)...All of this I will be posting about, but here I am.

I have literally nothing hooked-up yet...and won't until more pieces are together, so still not for about 2-3 months. Sucks to wait.

PS: Had a great experience so far purchasing from Matrixdude, Lakenorman and RenoHifi (Mark) both off Audiogon; Just sending out my appreciation!

PPS: I'm not an emoticon guy. Maybe I should get over that already.   :green:

Audiosmoot

Re: GreenGlue and OSB: The Apartment MEGA-Project!
« Reply #1 on: 5 Aug 2011, 07:59 am »
Argh. As a writer I particularly dislike auto-correct. Especially when the word has a similar meaning. "Ceiling" not "sealing." :duh:

Rob Babcock

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Re: GreenGlue and OSB: The Apartment MEGA-Project!
« Reply #2 on: 5 Aug 2011, 08:17 am »
Sounds like you're off to a great start!  BTW, Welcome to AC. :thumb:

decal

Re: GreenGlue and OSB: The Apartment MEGA-Project!
« Reply #3 on: 5 Aug 2011, 11:57 am »
Quote
I've considered this from many angles including oxygen availability (essentially air-tight), climate-control, safety concerns (can I hear that fire-alarm?), connectivity (cell-phone signal when inside?), and of course what so small a space will do for my equipment. Feel free to comment now before I commit!

Okay, you said feel free to comment, here goes. I think this is a really bad idea for all the reasons you're concerned about and lots of others. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to discourage you. It's your money and equipment not mine. 

Jeffrey Hedback

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Re: GreenGlue and OSB: The Apartment MEGA-Project!
« Reply #4 on: 5 Aug 2011, 12:23 pm »
Audiosmoot,

I will strongly urge you to pause and rethink your plan. Just a few concerns that crossed my mind:

- The mass-law principle will negate the benefit of ~75% of your OSB layers
- what are the structural ramifications of this plan to your landlords building???
- OSB is a marginal material for this task (although GG is cool)
- how are you decoupling this type of mass?
- exactly how are you achieving ventilation?
- and at the end of the day a 9'x9' space is a very poor acoustical space. 
- However, once it does exist it would need aggressive interior acoustical control to provide a reasonable response.

I suggest your first step is to truly define the amount of isolation you need to minimize intrusion from neighbors and contain your sessions from others.  This has to be done in relation to how the space is currently constructed.  It's likely that there is a more effective construction system for your goals.

MaxCast

Re: GreenGlue and OSB: The Apartment MEGA-Project!
« Reply #5 on: 5 Aug 2011, 12:44 pm »
It might be cheaper to send the other tenants out for dinner and a movie on your movie night.  :P

You said it would be modular.  The seams of the wall should be staggered for best sound proofing...don't know how that fits into your plans. 

I'd love to see your plans on the door.

Perhaps you could find a small house to rent close to work.

dm

Re: GreenGlue and OSB: The Apartment MEGA-Project!
« Reply #6 on: 5 Aug 2011, 01:35 pm »
buy a nice pair of headphones.

HT cOz

Re: GreenGlue and OSB: The Apartment MEGA-Project!
« Reply #7 on: 5 Aug 2011, 02:44 pm »
I've got to echo others comments that what you are trying to achieve is not really possible.  My house consists of the following Brick -> 3/4" Poliso -> house wrap -> OSB -> 2x4 walls with blown cellulose insulation -> drywall.  Even at moderate levels you can still hear music outside.  Now my room is completely disconnected from my house by a 3ft open air space.  That is enough to not be able to hear my media room under any conditions by those are 2 walls seperated by many feet of space. 

WGH

Re: GreenGlue and OSB: The Apartment MEGA-Project!
« Reply #8 on: 5 Aug 2011, 04:41 pm »
My first thought was: there goes your damage deposit. Once this monster box is assembled with Green Glue the only way to remove it is with a Sawzall. Instead of mass I would go toward lightweight sound insulation. Build a room within a room using insulated Sing Honeycomb panels, no extra framing or beam supports are needed because the panels are structural. The honeycomb panels don't touch the walls or ceiling so you will effectively have a "cone of silence" around your room.
http://www.superhoneycomb.com/index.htm


 

"I've considered this from many angles including oxygen availability..."
How many hours do you have before you and your guests pass out?

"...am looking at Jungson WG 80watt pure-A Power Amp..."
Sound like a nice little room heater. A small room with a body or two, a class A amp, and no ventilation could get uncomfortably warm.

Sounds like an interesting project once the details get worked out.

Wayne

Chromisdesigns

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Re: GreenGlue and OSB: The Apartment MEGA-Project!
« Reply #9 on: 5 Aug 2011, 05:51 pm »
With the kind of budget you are considering for "room treatment", I would suggest an alternative -- buy the best sounding headphones you can find and a compatible high-end headphone amp.  You will get way better sound and have way less hassles, both in terms of landlord-tenant relations and system/room tuning in a small cube.

You will also be able to breathe at night, and let's not forget the girlfriend acceptance factor, which might be important either now or in the future! :P

Audiosmoot

Re: GreenGlue and OSB: The Apartment MEGA-Project!
« Reply #10 on: 5 Aug 2011, 06:43 pm »
Thankyou all for the interest and commentary. BTW my name is Brandon Smoot, hence the tag. You may always feel free to call me by your choice of names. I often get "Smooter".

I do have some doubts, so let me lay out where my thinking has brought me so far organized as direct answers to the previous responses:

@ Rob Babock:

Thankyou Sir!

@ Decal:

There is no ventilation. Air Quality (considering both available oxygen and toxic CO2 levels) should be comfortable: CO-2 levels do not reach measurably toxic (harmful) levels until 1%, intoxication levels until 3%, lethal until above 8% (death in ten minutes at 10%). Prolonged exposure to even 2-3% is fine provided oxygen levels remain reasonable, and prolonged 1-2% exposure appear fine provided the subject has no respiratory-health issues. The 'net is full of sources that didn't do all their homework but provide lots of impressive figures and equations. My information is directly from sources such as OSHA. Sampling from the better sources, and taking the conservative measures, it looks like I'd have approximately 24 hours of restful behavior before CO-2 reaches even the lowly 1%. Divide that by the number of people in the room; So by myself I would have the full 24 hours, 2 people would have 12 hours, so on. It turns out CO2 poisoning becomes a concern in less than half the time Oxygen depletion becomes a concern, so we can pretty much end there.
Understand, I have chosen to be extra careful on this matter, because in order to convert this room I have installed a Murphy Bed. I will be sleeping, as well as possibly engaging in strenuous activity (quadrupling CO-2 production) and then falling asleep. I need to know I will wake-up, so I've been careful and concerned on the matter!
Lastly, on the off-chance that someone does not listen regarding the safety precautions (house-sitter?), I have decided to post them boldly in the room. 

I'm now more concerned with comfort. I'm not sure how much heat that much GreenGlue will transmit, there will be no cold-mass to off-set the warm-bodies in the room, I will have a few Class-A pieces of equipment... I'm thinking I made need to just make the room very cold before entering for any real time, or enjoy the sauna!

I'm going to install a transmitter for a fire-alarm to function. Alternatively I may find an appropriate internet-based alarm system. Certainly I'll need a doorbell transmitter and/or a CCTV to watch the exterior of my apartment (bonus: essentially it becomes a panic-room). All this may be costly but necessary. As an extra measure I have already purchased 5 fire extinguishers; In this way I hope to be able to buy-back any time lost should I not be immediately aware of a danger.

I will have to install an internet connection and use text-to-mail for communication (I already receive poor recepetion in this apartment).

Much of this may actually be no different than work in a sound-studio. Those with experience in such environments please feel free to put me on the right track!

PS: While I've noted the sensitivity of some members across many forums...I will state for the record here that your conversing with one of the least sensitive you'll come across: My feathers don't ruffle easily, so no worries. I invite criticism with my post; As I see it, criticism is a primary reason for this or any post.

@ Jeffrey Hedback:

On the GreenGlue site there's an excellent discussion of 3-leaf walls and increasing the mass of the soundproofing wall as superior to adding multiple decoupling spaces. I've not come across the "mass-law principle" and am now interested in what you have to say...?

There are no structural alterations whatsoever; Not a single nail will go into a wall. It will be, literally, a big box sitting in the existing room, spaced about 3 inches from each wall. I will route all electrical outlets to the interior with heavy-duty extension cords (collected together from all four walls to fit through a single pipe/hole on the most protected wall, this conduit given extra acoustic treatment).
Damage to the apartment in not a concern save for the carpet. I was concerned about this when a purchased a Snooker-Table. I heard what turned-out to be bogus claims of billiard tables collapsing floors. Turns out modern building codes allow your basic flooring to literally support cars stacked to your roof. Collect anvils? No problem. The carpet may be compressed, however, much like by a heavy armoire, yet not relegated to a few spots against the wall (the armoire's feet) but rather spread throughout the room. I do plan to stay here another couple years at least.

OSB is cheap. I've considered MDF, etc. But it looks like 4 layers of OSB is more productive than 2 layers of MDF (same cost) though that may be wrong. I am waiting on GreenGlue to respond to a in-depth email on this and other particulars.

The decoupling is sheer space, afforded by the fact the structure is self-supporting. Think of it as building a house within a house. It ends short of every wall, and the ceiling. The flooring is tricky. I have a wealth of many thousand wine-bottle corks that for now seem my best option to provide a supportive but differing buffer. I also have several visco-elastic memory-foam mattress-toppers. Then there is the carpet. That said I'm more than open to suggestions on this matter as the floor is definitely the weak spot. I have heard, I hope correctly, that most bass will want to travel upward. The ceiling is easily the strongest point in the whole thing.
Going by GreenGlue's numbers, nothing in the audible range should be an issue. I could build this project for half the cost and scale (6 layers) and cover my needs there. The 12 (or even 24) layers is needed to try to attenuate the subsonic frequencies. If GreenGlue gets back to me with a "no-go" answer (ie., the effect will fall very short of what is needed) I may accordingly diminish the project.

I have of course repeatedly heard mention of spatial dynamics, but not consistently or in a cogent, illuminating fashion. It is regularly claimed that electrostatics need 'room to breathe'. It's hard for me to see why, especially given the manufacturers generally suggest far less distance-from-walls than do reviewers. Bass is a particular concern as 'room boom' is often referenced. I confess I haven't found a source that explains in clear terms what that is or why I can't have good bass in a small space just by lowering the volume. What I hear clearly stated is that a smaller driver is all that is necessary for a smaller space, but that does not by itself suggest that a larger driver--necessary or not--would be detrimental. Please enlighten me community because I have exactly zero bass experience beyond public cinemas.

I have cart-loads of curtains, the aforementioned corks, many potential wall-objects (mainly paintings) and over a thousand square feet of rugs (a collection of small rugs, most of them 3x4). I don't understand why when rooms are treated there is often a plethora of hard surfaces. I thought the point is to soften the reflections, but it seems this is done only selectively.Perhaps it reduces variables and creates predictable, repeatable layouts?  Perhaps this is just for aesthetic purposes? Whatever the case, I am prepared to throw at it all the treatments necessary.

I've been looking for the most cost-effective option. Any ideas I'm all ears and all thumbs-up!

@ MaxCast

Definitely staggered. Not the easiest thing; It requires many more cuts. Thus the equipment I have will not suffice (I will need, for example, a meter saw). I will make the door simply a huge plug (possibly even two--one for each side interior and exterior). It will be constructed identically to the walls. The edges will be 'stepped'...each net sandwiched layer in-set from the others, so that  they form a nested mass of overlapping seams (think of a water-ripple with even-spaced tight concentric circles...now make it a rectangle). The whole thing will have no hinge--it will weigh far too much. Instead it will roll on industrial castors (already purchased--12" Iron monsters @ $40 a pop!).

@ dm

That was my idea for years. I will too, eventually, but now that I'm in, I'm all-in.

@ HT cOz

Check out that GreenGlue 3-leaf article I mentioned. That goes further than I could to explain clearly why you might have more issues there than I would. Of course, it's not a straight-forward comparison, so I would stress "might".

@ WGH

Thank-you! I will immediately begin looking into this option...

To be clear, I will be creating 4'x8' sandwiches of OSB-GreenGlue-OSB then combing these with screws (whilst overlapping seams, all-the-while cutting to order as necessary) and so there will be no need to saw into afterwards--I'll just need a power-drill. I will be needing a few crossbeams to span the approximately 11' distance--but these too will be disassembled merely with screws. I do have to plan all this out in advance (nearly have) so that I don't find myself closing off a space about which I will need to have access.

@ Chormisdesigns

Social life is a big reason for this. Company doesn't enjoy even the nicest set of cans. Also the aforementioned 'strenuous activity' is important to sound-proof (especially with a younger-brother moving-in). I think the GAF will be kind to me. Down the road...the materials can just be reinstalled as a normal component of a house, in the normal fashion.






Hope I answered everyone well! My biggest worry is actually breaking fire-code. No matter how safe I make it, code-is-code. Annual fire-safety inspections may get me. For example, there is a sprinkler system in my apartment--they cannot be legally blocked. This box would be sufficiently below the spout if a piece of furniture--but as it is enclosed and any spray would only rest over it without penetration into the interior...? It will be very costly, but I may have to create a vaulted ceiling to this box in order to include the sprinkler (this would also create an acoustic weak spot as it would include part of the wall directly--to which I could only provide a few layers of protection--maybe 4 OSB or 2 sandwiches total).  :scratch:

Tyson

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Re: GreenGlue and OSB: The Apartment MEGA-Project!
« Reply #11 on: 5 Aug 2011, 06:56 pm »
Headphones.  Or buy a house.

Hipper

Re: GreenGlue and OSB: The Apartment MEGA-Project!
« Reply #12 on: 5 Aug 2011, 07:03 pm »
I live in the UK and I understand our apartments (we call them flats) are more solidly built - brick walls, wooden floors concrete ceilings. There is some intrusion of sound so I put sonic insulation on the floor under the carpet.  My original room size was 13' x 8' x 8' and I used speakers which would work in bigger room but, using a nearfield arrangement with the speakers on the long wall, auralex acoustic foam and a digital equalizer I got a satisfactory sound.

Does sound transmit more readily through U.S. apartments? What are they made of?

For the money you intend to spend I can only agree with the other comments and suggest you reflect on them and get some good advice. I'm sure it is possible to get a good sound in your room but you seem to be getting carried away a bit. You're in the right place.

Chromisdesigns

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Re: GreenGlue and OSB: The Apartment MEGA-Project!
« Reply #13 on: 5 Aug 2011, 07:54 pm »
I would be concerned about living in a sealed box with no ventilation, not just re oxygen depletion and co2 buildup, but specifically in your case with formaldehyde out-gassing from all that OSB.

Plus, I think in the UK, especially, the code and fire inspectors will go ape-sh*t when they see something like that, and probably your landlord's fire and liability insurance company, as well. 

Just suppose all that hot equipment overheats, starts a fire, and you and your SO are overcome by the smoke in that enclosed area.  Or fall sick and pass out for a couple days...IMHO you are taking a lot of risk for...what?

Chromisdesigns

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Re: GreenGlue and OSB: The Apartment MEGA-Project!
« Reply #14 on: 5 Aug 2011, 08:35 pm »
You could maybe do it this way...

http://s815.photobucket.com/albums/zz79/sfnomercy/Norad/?action=view&current=giantsprings.jpg&sort=ascending

or better yet, with the pending defense cuts here, this facility might be available for lease, it's already been vibration treated (and how!), and there are no neighbors to annoy.  Plenty of room for any system you could imagine.  Just close the blast doors and experience acoustic nirvanna -- and protection from nukes, as well!

The doors:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NORADBlast-Doors.jpg


WGH

Re: GreenGlue and OSB: The Apartment MEGA-Project!
« Reply #15 on: 5 Aug 2011, 09:06 pm »
PS: While I've noted the sensitivity of some members across many forums...I will state for the record here that your conversing with one of the least sensitive you'll come across: My feathers don't ruffle easily, so no worries.

That is good to hear, now I can post a few pics.

When I read your first post I immediately thought of Jesse's new stereo in the series Breaking Bad because everything you are doing seems a little over the top too.





As long as we are in "over the top mode" a good way to completely isolate your new room are air bladders, they work for turntables so why not entire rooms? Some clear plastic tubing, 9 heavy duty bicycle inner tubes and a small air compressor should get the job done.

Wayne


Letitroll98

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Re: GreenGlue and OSB: The Apartment MEGA-Project!
« Reply #16 on: 6 Aug 2011, 02:25 am »
Smootmiester, I really like that you've thought out the project so thoroughly, I love your inventiveness, and you said you have a thick skin, so here goes, please don't take offense.

Your first purchase should be a large rubber mallet.  Take the mallet and go outside.  Strike yourself in the head until these thoughts of building a room inside your apartment completely disappear.  Blows near the frontal lobe will be the most effective.  This will be the best first use of your $5k budget.

Take the remainder of your funds and do two things.  Rent a nice detached garage nearby, possibly a large storage locker instead, and set up a kewl party room with a bangin' stereo.  Then get a nice little bookshelf speaker system that rolls off below 60hz for listening at home.  This will be way cheaper than spending the thousands of extra dollars you're going to need to fix all of the unintended consequences of plan A.   

Audiosmoot

Re: GreenGlue and OSB: The Apartment MEGA-Project!
« Reply #17 on: 6 Aug 2011, 05:55 am »
@ ALL

Okay, I'm not giving up, but I'm going to sit on the idea a while longer. I will talk to a fire-sergeant to see if there is anything I might have missed, I'll look up OSB-gas-release figures, I'll continue to investigate alternative options (and report back) I'll draw a mallet hitting my frontal lobes (complete with "KABLAMM!") and I'll tackle other projects in the interim.

One thing I really like about the project is the investment-aspect. It relocates with me. I can't afford my life plans simultaneously with home ownership, at least not this decade, but this project here is an upgrade to every rental. 

@ Hipper

Wood, various compound materials, nothing meant to last beyond 100 years. I can definitely hear my neighbors walk and talk on occasion. 

Tyson

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Re: GreenGlue and OSB: The Apartment MEGA-Project!
« Reply #18 on: 6 Aug 2011, 10:09 am »
Dude, you are insane.  I know you will argue about the sanity of your plan.  That simply proves that you are insane.

Rob Babcock

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Re: GreenGlue and OSB: The Apartment MEGA-Project!
« Reply #19 on: 6 Aug 2011, 12:20 pm »
Okay, I'm sorry to have endorsed a rather flaky plan.  As the moderator of this circle I just determined that you weren't a Bot and were interested in the subject.  Take the flak you're getting as constructive criticism.  You have enough room to create a great space.  You're current plan won't give you what you want, so take the time to learn and create a plan that will.