[JohnR]

Why don't you just move?

[Letitroll98]

I'll draw a mallet hitting my frontal lobes (complete with "KABLAMM!") and I'll tackle other projects in the interim.

A much safer alternative that will prolly accomplish the same thing, a reset.  Thanks for taking all the criticism with a good attitude, shows you're a good guy and members will continue to take an interest in your project.

My main concern was not oxygen levels or fire safety codes, which are valid concerns, I just don't think it will sound good.  Smaller is never better in home audio installations and you're making a smallish room even smaller.  The reasons for this are too numerous and voluminous for a short post, but these answers are in many readily available books on acoustics and within the pages of this circle for all those wishing to learn.  And if anything, you seem like a person eager to learn.  For starters, here's a link to a post at Home Theater Shack that has links to some kewl toys to play with.  When you learn how to play with these toys and what they mean, you'll be well on your way to having a working knowledge of home audio acoustics.  http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/336-room-mode-calculator-converter.html 

I was making a joke about the mallet, but not about the suggested solutions.  For your home and living constraints you should really consider a limited bass system.  Limiting bass below 60hz inherently solves difficult to resolve bass issues in small rooms, and mitigates your problem with neighbors.  Best of luck with whatever you decide.         

[Audiosmoot]

@ Letitroll98

Thank-you for the link. It will occupy me while I bide my time figuring out something even crazier.  I'm already reading it...

@ JohnR

I have a snooker table. People also said I as crazy for getting that. It's a 10' billiard table (they also make 12', but I'm not wealthy). This is the only apartment that I've found which fits it, and then just barely. It literally is my living room all by itself. No sofa; No room for any other furniture, just room to move around the table and have a proper stroke. Thus I needed a MurphyBed (another huge, expensive and piano-mover inconvenience) to make my bedroom dual-purpose. I could move, but that probably means sacrificing my table, and even if not it's still a couple thousand in expenses (just moving and resetting the table and the MurphyBed is over 1k).   

[Diamond Dog]

Just curious : Would this thread be considered more comedic relief or more cautionary example? 

D.D.

[eclein]

Smooter-- The question I keep asking myself is "why"? And then I say to myself that this has to be a put on. So I decided to play along, 1) first I really don't believe you'll get permits to build it 2) Your landlord would have to be touched to let you modify/destroy one of his units 3) Headphones are better and a hell of a lot cheaper and less time consuming 4) Why 5) Why and 6) Why??????????

[jriggy]

Whats more important, snooker or audio? I say get rid of the snooker table and put your audio system in that room. It's probably bigger, rectangle and therefore better suited for audio. No one has mentioned yet how bad a square room is for this.

[neekomax]

Kinda reminds me of Lawnchair Larry. If there had been forums back then, I'm sure people would have telling me not to do it. But he made it. So hey... 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Walters

[Audiosmoot]

@ eclein

No permit is needed. As said there is no structural change, indeed there is not a single nail placed into a wall of the apartment. Imagine a large piece of furniture: this piece covers an entire room, but occupies it in exactly the same fashion...it just sits there. There will be no damage to the apartment.

I speak from experience. I once rented an apartment converted from an old factory. It had 22' ceilings, but no closets. I built what I called a "treehouse" smack in the center of the unit. It was 22' high, 20' long and 12' wide. It was two levels. The bottom level was an enclosed bedroom and separate office. The top level was a walk-in closet. Along the walls of this apartment I also built a shelving unit for my book collection (now destroyed by Hurricane Ike). This unit ran the full length of the open-space apartment (35' long) and was 12' high. No damage was done to the apartment. No permit was needed. The landlord was impressed but didn't care. Who would? At the end of the day it was just a large sculpture hurting nothing and no-one.

I never had a guest (and I through many parties) including those of the female persuasion, that was ever anything but admiring of what I wrought right smack in the center of that apartment (wish I had pictures!).

Now that apartment was void of dividing walls, personal spaces, storage spaces. So I built them. This apartment (and every one I've ever lived in but one) has terrible soundproofing. I can't afford a house, but I can afford this project, which as describes, considered seriously, is not expensive for the personal return-on-investment*, is not difficult to build (the treehouse was much more involved--here I'm just building a big, boring box), is not unsafe (as I've laboriously investigated to be firmly certain on this mark), is...simply a solution to a problem where I took the blinders off. I'd urge you to do the same.

*There have been two, powerful suggestions against this project. The first I named: codes and possible conflicting. I've looked into many aspects of this, and it looks to be in the hands of the inspector and their personal judgement. Technically, it does not seem to break and of the rules the way that I have conceived it. The second I expected, and feedback on this issue is amongst the primary reasons for my posting: will the room even sound good? This I am still looking into...

[Jeffrey Hedback]

Audiosmoot,

In fact you are creating a structural change: the load bearing condition.  That and fire safety implications in most all jurisdictions would require your plans to be permitted.

I, again, suggest that your proposed construction system is way off target and the result (if it were to happen) would be a horrid sounding room.

Also, your system will not be decoupled from the floor (at all) from the methods you've stated and all vibrations from your OSB "vault" will transmit to the floor.

There may be a way to reach your goals.  I do not see you moving that direction in your current plans.

[decal]

You seem to be rejecting everyone's comments so far. Sounds to me your mind was made up before you even started this thread. Why don't you just build the thing and be done with it? You can then tell us how wonderful your first system sounds in it.

[HT cOz]

@ eclein

No permit is needed. As said there is no structural change, indeed there is not a single nail placed into a wall of the apartment. Imagine a large piece of furniture: this piece covers an entire room, but occupies it in exactly the same fashion...it just sits there. There will be no damage to the apartment.

I speak from experience. I once rented an apartment converted from an old factory. It had 22' ceilings, but no closets. I built what I called a "treehouse" smack in the center of the unit. It was 22' high, 20' long and 12' wide. It was two levels. The bottom level was an enclosed bedroom and separate office. The top level was a walk-in closet. Along the walls of this apartment I also built a shelving unit for my book collection (now destroyed by Hurricane Ike). This unit ran the full length of the open-space apartment (35' long) and was 12' high. No damage was done to the apartment. No permit was needed. The landlord was impressed but didn't care. Who would? At the end of the day it was just a large sculpture hurting nothing and no-one.

I never had a guest (and I through many parties) including those of the female persuasion, that was ever anything but admiring of what I wrought right smack in the center of that apartment (wish I had pictures!).

Now that apartment was void of dividing walls, personal spaces, storage spaces. So I built them. This apartment (and every one I've ever lived in but one) has terrible soundproofing. I can't afford a house, but I can afford this project, which as describes, considered seriously, is not expensive for the personal return-on-investment*, is not difficult to build (the treehouse was much more involved--here I'm just building a big, boring box), is not unsafe (as I've laboriously investigated to be firmly certain on this mark), is...simply a solution to a problem where I took the blinders off. I'd urge you to do the same.

*There have been two, powerful suggestions against this project. The first I named: codes and possible conflicting. I've looked into many aspects of this, and it looks to be in the hands of the inspector and their personal judgement. Technically, it does not seem to break and of the rules the way that I have conceived it. The second I expected, and feedback on this issue is amongst the primary reasons for my posting: will the room even sound good? This I am still looking into...

We can all appreciate your determination for great sound and we all are after the same thing.  However before you spend all that money on this project, why not do a mini proof of concept project.  Take your subwoofer and build a box around it with the methods you plan on using now play it at your referance volume and see how it all works?

Just a thought.

[dwk]

I figured that this was a half-baked troll-ish thread, but apparently not.

Is someone honestly suggesting importing ~18000 pounds of OSB into an apartment building?  To be put into a single room? I'm all for over-the-top excess in the right place, but not only does this strike me as a non-starter due to the structural considerations but also the logistics of constructing such a beast in a confined space would seem to be a problem. 

I actually think that massive stacks of OSB would be greatly inferior to a simpler approach of a couple sets of double-drywall that were isolated and spaced apart with appropriate insulation.  If you could figure out how to isolate from the floor, and figure out how to seal the door, that might actually have a shot at working adequately, although it's not without its engineering challenges.

Having said that, I'm firmly in the camp that thinks that practical aspects aside, the entire idea of putting forth significant effort to create a 9x9x7 (or whatever the height is) listening room is, well, questionable to put it mildly. Unless the plan is to go completely anechoic, early reflections and a modal region that starts very high in freq will in all likelihood make this sound horrible. And of course anechoic is basically pointless - just go with headphones.

My feelings on this break down as:
- Living in an apartment and full-spectrum, full-intensity audio simply don't mix well. Tilting at windmills is noble to a point, but bravado alone doesn't rewrite the laws of physics
- extremely satisfying results can be had with either nearfield or headphone systems. A limited-bass nearfield system may well be within the bounds of what your apartment can support. If not, $5k will get you an absolutely stellar headphone system - Stax and tubes are within reach at that price point.
- the 'rent a storage unit' may not be a bad idea even if you are absolutely dead set on pursuing this. First, it will possibly enable you to test out how something sounds in a tiny space. Second, it'll give you 'shop space' for construction. I'm assuming you aren't going to be running tools inside your apartment and spewing sawdust everywhere....

[richidoo]

There are more efficient ways to achieve isolation, you need to do a lot more research.

You will need much less isolation if you can lower the volume. Speakers with good bass response are satisfying at lower levels, especially when the ambient noise is very low. You can lower the volume drastically if you lower the noise floor of your listening space with acoustic damping. Then mechanically isolate the speakers from the building and it will be good enough to watch movies and music at normal levels. Communicate with the neighbors affected, so they can give feedback if it's too loud. If they become your friends you can work with them. If acoustic damping is not enough for their comfort and your movie schedule then just build a single sealed but floating wall on the neighbor's shared wall with vinyl sheet and OC705 FG to attenuate low freqs.

Your landlord won't allow what you're proposing.

Put the money for this isolation project into a single family house. There are numerous other advantages to you, and the HT problem is solved. Now is the best time there will ever be in your lifetime to buy a home.

Your enthusiasm is awesome! You are crazy about audio, just like me!

[HT cOz]

- extremely satisfying results can be had with either nearfield or headphone systems. A limited-bass nearfield system may well be within the bounds of what your apartment can support. If not, $5k will get you an absolutely stellar headphone system - Stax and tubes are within reach at that price point.

I think there is a lot of merit in this sugestion.  This is basically my setup and I do listen at much lower volume levels and it is very satisfying.  I can listen as loud as I want but I don't because it sounds better a much lower levels and my ears dont ring

Here are a couple pics of how I did this. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=2930

[nathanm]

Question for homeowners: DOES owning a home truly solve your acoustic privacy problems?  Have you had problems with OTHER homeowners?

[poseidonsvoice]

Question for homeowners: DOES owning a home truly solve your acoustic privacy problems?  Have you had problems with OTHER homeowners?

It does solve the problem for sound proof isolation between homes, as long as the homes are not right next to each other, and you are not hell bent on having the block party every night. It does not solve any of the problems of sound pervading within the home (especially low frequencies). There are other solutions for that.

Apartments and even townhouses were never designed for soundproofing imho unless they are fully concrete (at which point you have acoustical problems within the apartment itself due to more pronounced modal issues).

There are two issues here:

1) Sound Proofing
2) Acoustic treatment within the room to condition the room to the response you desire (to a degree).

The methods for 1 and 2 are completely different from one another. There are plenty of resources to read up on this. One good website is:

Sound Isolation Store for Question 1.

For Question 2, just stay here on AC! I am sure Bryan Pape, Ethan Winer, Nyals Mellor, and Jeffrey Hedback will be thrilled to help!

Anand.

[jriggy]

I am currently working with Jeff Headback -- someone giving you professional advice in this thread -- on a potential dedicated audio attic build. We are waiting to get an engineering assessment of my home for, among other things, weight load... And if Jeff is saying "would be a horrid sounding room" then believe it!

Best of luck with your decisions.

 

[PDR]

It does work, privacy matters, and not just for neighbors.....what about family members.

I live on 10 acres and recently built a dedicated room from my single attached garage....about 15'x 26'.
I lined all the existing walls and ceiling with a second wall/ceiling 6" wide and insulated.
I didnt do this for neighbors, I did it for my family. Although I dont listen at high volume, I want my hobby
to have as little negative effect on them as possible.

Its kinda a selfish reason.....when I wanted new toys and they had to listen they were not receptive.
Now what I get or do in my own room they could care less.

[richidoo]

Question for homeowners: DOES owning a home truly solve your acoustic privacy problems?  Have you had problems with OTHER homeowners?

Sound dissipates quickly outside. Plus there is no mechanical transmission of vibration.

My neighbors are 100+feet from my house, but I wondered how loud it sounded outside. So I blasted some dance music to the loudest realistic level on my Legacy Focus 2020 speakers and headed outside to find that 10 feet away from the house it was nothing but a gentle thump, everything else had dissipated or blended into ambient noise.

[nathanm]

 I have thought a lot about the same idea as Audiosmoot, but it's just not sensible in my view.  I think it's better in the long run to change your location and lose the neighbors rather than keep your neighbors and change your wall thickness.

Ethically speaking, if the landlord approves of the project then go ahead, but why put all that work into a rental property?  Basically if you're going to do such a thing you're talking about a MAJOR project.  It's going to mean a lot of time and money.  If I'm going to do a major project then I want it to be relatively permanent.  Building a room within a room strains the credibility of "portability" to the breaking point, no matter if no alteration is made to the underlying structure.  I think it's more important to own the underlying structure before you go and sink a ton of resources into something like that.

I think controlling transmission\isolation must come before acoustics, but still, if you did all that work and then ended up with a crappy-sounding room it would be especially painful.  At least I'd want to jam a golden-ratio room within a room, even if it was small.

But hey, if you ignore all the naysayers on this thread Audiosmoot, please take and post photos!   I for one would like to see someone else realizing my own insane fantasies.

My neighbors are 100+feet from my house, but I wondered how loud it sounded outside. So I blasted some dance music to the loudest realistic level on my Legacy Focus 2020 speakers and headed outside to find that 10 feet away from the house it was nothing but a gentle thump, everything else had dissipated or blended into ambient noise.

THIS is the Holy Grail in my view.  Even if you replaced "Legacy Focus 2020" with "White Van Speakers" the rest of it is still worth it.  Isolation\transmitted sound control has to come before acoustics.