[Turnandcough]

Just wondering - how would a Squeezebox Touch(modded or not) using a decent linear power supply fare against a Mac Mini with modded PS?

Let’s say both were using the same DAC (Eastern Electric for example) and the Mac was connected to an  AudioPhileo 2 or other similarly priced USB-S/PDIF converter.

[highfilter]

I haven't had exactly what you are asking, but I'll throw in my experience.

I previously have had a stock SqueezeBox Touch -> SPDIF -> Wyred4Sound DAC-2 and directly compared it to a Mac Mini (2010) -> USB -> Wyred4Sound DAC-2 and the Mac Mini won hands down. Everything I thought sounded great about the Touch was improved with the Mac Mini, especially the organic nature of the music and overall clarity.

Ever since, every tweak I've put on the Mac Mini just keeps making it better and better (I'm amazed weekly at how good some of my tracks sound). Of course, it costs a lot more than the SqueezeBox Touch, so if you want quality sound for cheap, the SqueezeBox Touch does sound quite good.

If you are going to tweak out the SqueezeBox Touch, it might provide great performance for a much lower cost. Otherwise, I'd go the Mac Mini route as you can tweak the hell out of it as well, and far exceed the Touch (PS tweaks, upgraded power cords, isolation platforms, SSD, software player tweaks etc). But this is just based on my experience, and I have since went to a USB only DAC, so it depends on your DAC as well.

[JLM]

Thanks for the reply.

Going computer source is my next move and would be getting a new computer anyway.  So in that case a Mini would make sense for me.

Question: Did you compare a dedicated/optimized Mini or a stock one that is used for typical home/office applications?

Question: What tweaks have you been using?

[Turnandcough]

Thanks for your reply highfilter.

I'm currently using a Bolder modded Touch + CIA PSU with the EE DAC. I'm quite happy with the sound but I've never actually listened to the stock Touch so I don't know how much better it actually is.

What I've had trouble understanding is why so many people are going the Mac Mini + modded PSU + USB-S/PDIF converter + DAC route. It's substantially more expensive and not as user friendly as than the <$300 Touch + DAC. 

I figured it's either because they already own a Mac or because of the sound.

[lcrim]

They're terrified of networking.  I hear really incredible questions regarding networking every day.  People prefer to spend more to get less due to that fear.  They will even argue about stuff about which they are clearly out of their depth.
I've been trying to start a business to help with this but I haven't figured out how to reach that market yet.

[highfilter]

Question: Did you compare a dedicated/optimized Mini or a stock one that is used for typical home/office applications?

I bought the Mac Mini for music playback. It was stock from the store. I initially basically ran it "as-is" with a few audio playback tools (Pure Music, AyreWave). I found the sound better than the stock Touch even at this state.

Question: What tweaks have you been using?

Since then, I've tweaked the hell out of it and it's pretty unreal how good digital audio sounds. Tweaks so far applied to the Mac Mini:

- Custom power cord by PI Audio Group. A significant improvement in the soundstage and dynamics, and lends a great hand in an organic sound. See more here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=89756.0

- Isolation and vibration control. Have the Mac Mini elevated off the rack and have a top-weight to apply pressure to minimize vibrations. Great improvement in weight and natural focus to the music. Have some isolation goodies coming from PI Audio Group in the mail as we speak: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=88100.0

- Having the Mac Mini plugged into a power conditioner or filter. I have mine plugged into an ÜberBUSS and it marks a significant improvement on the sound. Some people have it straight to wall, but I've tried it both ways and the sound is much more organic and less digital-like when connected to my power unit.

- I haven't had mine done, but Wayne from the Bolder Cable Company also does custom power supply mods to the Mac Mini and makes it possible to use an external linear power supply. Would be interested in hearing how much if affects the sound, as I'm told the new Mac Mini is quite a bit more efficient than the older models, and has better power management and isolation than the older models. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=91142.0

- Replace the internal hard drive with a Solid-State Drive. Reduces power usage, vibrations and overall efficiency of the computer. I haven't done any A/B comparisons because I only have 1 Mac Mini to listen to, but I believe it has a small improvement in sound.

- Upgrade the memory of the Mac Mini to 8GB. Not really NEEDED as much as the SSD, but RAM is cheap and when playing back large music files from memory, it helps when you have more RAM for resources and buffering.

- Playback music files from external storage using firewire through an Oxford chipset external drive enclosure. The Oxford chipsets are supposed to be the best for audio/video playback and Oyen makes quality enclosures. Theory is to offload the activity of the internal hard drive of the Mac Mini and power usage to have all music on the external drive. Slight improvement in playback quality, but much smaller than other tweaks. http://oyendigital.com/firewire-800-usb-hard-drive.html

- Software tweaks: Involve removing a lot of background processes, extra applications and any OS functions that run in the background to lower the CPU and hard drive usage overall. Any background processes use resources, and more resources = more power usage from the computer. There's a bunch of tweaks around the Internet that you can find to minimize resource usage and increase performance. These have been quite useful and improve sonics quite a bit. There's also a company that takes this one step further and strips down everything down to the T and offers scripts for various playback software. I haven't used the Mach2Music services, but I have heard great feedback from their customers. http://www.mach2music.com/

- The actual playback software. This is a BIG one. Various audio players sound different. Some a lot different than others. My recent reference for best playback sound quality is Audirvana. I believe this player offers the most natural and non-altered method of playback and sounds amazing (especially high freq. and vocals). Audirvana does something special with memory management and how it plays and buffers the audio into the RAM of the computer. It's different than other programs running the audio files from the memory, I believe they are on to something special. Other runners up include: Pure Music and Decibel. I find Pure Music offers its own sonic signature to the music more so than the others, but it goes track by track. The bass is a little more bloated compared to others too, I found. Here's a link to Audirvana: http://code.google.com/p/audirvana/

- Running the Mac Mini headless with only the USB DAC plugged in and external hard drive via firewire. Having no display running or shared USB devices helps to keep things simple.

I think that is most of the tweaks I've done or know about!

Can't forget about the connection to the actual source either. Whether it is a modified HiFace or quality USB cable, make sure you have a quality connection and a quality DAC. I've only ever used the Mac Mini through straight USB and I am blown away by the quality, but I've heard good things from people using the John Kenny modded M2Tech HiFace MK2 as well. I'm running the Essential USB SE cable and Tranquility SE DAC from dB Audio labs by the way, and I love it!

I believe there's a greater performance opportunity with the Mac Mini over the SqueezeBox Touch, but it comes down to budget and how much effort you want to put into your digital source. I recommend both products as good sources, but the performance of the Mac Mini goes into the holy shit territory on sound quality as you move up the ladder. Also keep in mind that the Mac Mini has no restrictions (it can play any file, any sampling rate etc) (compared to the SqueezeBox being restricted to its own hardware and software) so as DACs improve your source will have the opportunity to evolve with it.

[skunark]

I bought the Mac Mini for music playback. It was stock from the store. I initially basically ran it "as-is" with a few audio playback tools (Pure Music, AyreWave). I found the sound better than the stock Touch even at this state.

Since then, I've tweaked the hell out of it and it's pretty unreal how good digital audio sounds. Tweaks so far applied to the Mac Mini:

- Custom power cord by PI Audio Group. A significant improvement in the soundstage and dynamics, and lends a great hand in an organic sound. See more here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=89756.0

- Isolation and vibration control. Have the Mac Mini elevated off the rack and have a top-weight to apply pressure to minimize vibrations. Great improvement in weight and natural focus to the music. Have some isolation goodies coming from PI Audio Group in the mail as we speak: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=88100.0

- Having the Mac Mini plugged into a power conditioner or filter. I have mine plugged into an ÜberBUSS and it marks a significant improvement on the sound. Some people have it straight to wall, but I've tried it both ways and the sound is much more organic and less digital-like when connected to my power unit.

- I haven't had mine done, but Wayne from the Bolder Cable Company also does custom power supply mods to the Mac Mini and makes it possible to use an external linear power supply. Would be interested in hearing how much if affects the sound, as I'm told the new Mac Mini is quite a bit more efficient than the older models, and has better power management and isolation than the older models. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=91142.0

- Replace the internal hard drive with a Solid-State Drive. Reduces power usage, vibrations and overall efficiency of the computer. I haven't done any A/B comparisons because I only have 1 Mac Mini to listen to, but I believe it has a small improvement in sound.

- Upgrade the memory of the Mac Mini to 8GB. Not really NEEDED as much as the SSD, but RAM is cheap and when playing back large music files from memory, it helps when you have more RAM for resources and buffering.

- Playback music files from external storage using firewire through an Oxford chipset external drive enclosure. The Oxford chipsets are supposed to be the best for audio/video playback and Oyen makes quality enclosures. Theory is to offload the activity of the internal hard drive of the Mac Mini and power usage to have all music on the external drive. Slight improvement in playback quality, but much smaller than other tweaks. http://oyendigital.com/firewire-800-usb-hard-drive.html

- Software tweaks: Involve removing a lot of background processes, extra applications and any OS functions that run in the background to lower the CPU and hard drive usage overall. Any background processes use resources, and more resources = more power usage from the computer. There's a bunch of tweaks around the Internet that you can find to minimize resource usage and increase performance. These have been quite useful and improve sonics quite a bit. There's also a company that takes this one step further and strips down everything down to the T and offers scripts for various playback software. I haven't used the Mach2Music services, but I have heard great feedback from their customers. http://www.mach2music.com/

- The actual playback software. This is a BIG one. Various audio players sound different. Some a lot different than others. My recent reference for best playback sound quality is Audirvana. I believe this player offers the most natural and non-altered method of playback and sounds amazing (especially high freq. and vocals). Audirvana does something special with memory management and how it plays and buffers the audio into the RAM of the computer. It's different than other programs running the audio files from the memory, I believe they are on to something special. Other runners up include: Pure Music and Decibel. I find Pure Music offers its own sonic signature to the music more so than the others, but it goes track by track. The bass is a little more bloated compared to others too, I found. Here's a link to Audirvana: http://code.google.com/p/audirvana/

- Running the Mac Mini headless with only the USB DAC plugged in and external hard drive via firewire. Having no display running or shared USB devices helps to keep things simple.

I think that is most of the tweaks I've done or know about!

Can't forget about the connection to the actual source either. Whether it is a modified HiFace or quality USB cable, make sure you have a quality connection and a quality DAC. I've only ever used the Mac Mini through straight USB and I am blown away by the quality, but I've heard good things from people using the John Kenny modded M2Tech HiFace MK2 as well. I'm running the Essential USB SE cable and Tranquility SE DAC from dB Audio labs by the way, and I love it!

I believe there's a greater performance opportunity with the Mac Mini over the SqueezeBox Touch, but it comes down to budget and how much effort you want to put into your digital source. I recommend both products as good sources, but the performance of the Mac Mini goes into the holy shit territory on sound quality as you move up the ladder. Also keep in mind that the Mac Mini has no restrictions (it can play any file, any sampling rate etc) (compared to the SqueezeBox being restricted to its own hardware and software) so as DACs improve your source will have the opportunity to evolve with it.

That truly is a lot of work to set up a USB DAC.   As for the Oxford HDD chipsets, it won't have a clue if it's audio or media files, it's just blocks of data it's reading and only act as a storage function.  It might be more or less efficient than other HDD chipsets, but in the end it will provide a reliable transfer of data like any HDD chipset.    Being bus powered would eliminate the wall-wart and potentially is the best advantage it has.

A loaded question here, but if you considered all the mods as a whole, do you think this reduced jitter, dropouts or just an underlying audible improvement?  Or perhaps all three?

[highfilter]

That truly is a lot of work to set up a USB DAC.

I just love music and could be called an audio nut, but really you could just plug everything in and press play and it would sound great. But there's always tweaks and more tweaks for everything. Using a Mac Mini for audio can be an extremely simple process or adventurous one. I work in the computer industry so when audio and computers collide, I'll be working with a big smile on my face.

As for the Oxford HDD chipsets, it won't have a clue if it's audio or media files, it's just blocks of data it's reading and only act as a storage function.  It might be more or less efficient than other HDD chipsets, but in the end it will provide a reliable transfer of data like any HDD chipset.    Being bus powered would eliminate the wall-wart and potentially is the best advantage it has.

As for the external enclosure, I'll let other people debate about chipsets and sound quality differences they hear between external drives - but I know Oyen makes quality enclosures that sound great and others have recommended them to me. I don't care much to compare a bunch of drives and enclosures as I don't think the difference would be THAT great anyway, but I agree with you about the wall-wart and bus power. I've heard people bitch about external drive differences before, and it's usually from a low-cost option and possibly due to not meeting speed requirements or inducing grunge from a wall-wart or bad implementation of a fan etc.

A loaded question here, but if you considered all the mods as a whole, do you think this reduced jitter, dropouts or just an underlying audible improvement?  Or perhaps all three?

Not sure about jitter, as I'm no expert to measure such things or can even nail-down what more or less jitter alone would actually sound like - but all the tweaks combined are not subtle, and mark a greater improvement from simply going from a SqueezeBox Touch to a Mac Mini in the first place. My system has never sounded this organic and analog like, and each tweak has got me to this point. Some tweaks are cheap, some are more expensive, but they transform the Mac Mini into a fantastic source without costing an arm and leg like some high-end CD transports, while offering greater freedom and flexibility.

I've never had dropouts, but to answer your question, probably all three. You don't need all these tweaks to make the Mac Mini a winner, it's just what is available to you. Just ask Wayne from Bolder Cable or Dave from PI Audio Group, it just never ends. 

[Turnandcough]

My next question would be - besides its compact size what advantage does a Mac Mini have over a standard PC? 
After all the PC is potentially more powerful, has a better power supply, more RAM, etc...and most of all - I already own a pretty decent one. 

[highfilter]

My next question would be - besides its compact size what advantage does a Mac Mini have over a standard PC? 
After all the PC is potentially more powerful, has a better power supply, more RAM, etc...and most of all - I already own a pretty decent one.

I'm sure others have more technical knowledge of the differences (Eric from dB Audio Labs is a good guy to get details from), but:

- Case is a solid block of aluminum and is pretty good for blocking EMI / RFI
- Very quiet, especially with an SSD and it only has one small fan inside of it. Very usable in the same room as other audio equipment
- Low power consumption
- From what I heard, uses very good internal parts which are all low-noise and high quality parts. Also has less bulk and extra circuits on the motherboard and is very minimal inside (less crap to power and get in the way of the basic functions)
- Comes standard with everything required and is well setup (USB, Firewire, decent power supply, compact)
- Is a Mac. From my experience (also have a high-speed PC) the Mac wins hands down for audio quality playback. I've compared my PC with Windows 7 on it, the Mac Mini with Windows 7 on it and the Mac Mini with Mac OSX on it. The Mac Mini with OSX won hands down. I believe the Mac has the most developed audio playback software, and most of them are actively being worked on versus the PC playback software. Also, I believe the OS itself is better equipped for the task versus Windows. I'm sure Linux is a viable option as well, but most of the great audio players I've heard are for the Mac and they are actively updated.

It also comes down to just personal preference and what you want for costs. If you can grab a Mac and test it out and compare it yourself, that would be the best. I've never been a huge Mac fan, and never had any Mac product before getting the Mac Mini for audio. I only use it for audio and it's a very versatile unit with probably the most impressive audio software.

[Turnandcough]

- Very quiet, especially with an SSD and it only has one small fan inside of it. Very usable in the same room as other audio equipment

I guess if I were going to place it in the same room that would be a major deciding factor because, despite the "quiet" fans,  fanless GPU, damping material, etc I've never managed to make my PC completely silent.

The thing is I(wife) don't want a puter(even a Mac) in the living room. So unless a 30ft USB cable is OK I guess I'll have to continue compromising SQ for convenience and stick with the Touch.

 

[highfilter]

Although the Mac Mini is very quiet, it all depends on the room and system setup to determine how much of that matters at all. The Mac Mini is small enough that you could hide it behind system if desired, but again it depends on the setup.

The Touch does sound quite nice and I was happy with it until I ventured off. If you're happy with it, that's all the matters. Goal is to enjoy the music! 

[mr_bill]

Mr highfilter,

I like your comments - what if my entire library is in Flac?  Then is the Mac Mini solution that you use out of the question?

[srb]

..... what if my entire library is in Flac?  Then is the Mac Mini solution that you use out of the question?

FLAC playback is dependent on the capability of the software player, not the computer type or OS.  Although iTunes does not natively play FLAC, If you like the iTunes interface, the Pure Music add-in software player from Channel D (http://www.channld.com/puremusic/) will allow you to play FLAC files as well as provide even higher quality playback than using the iTunes playback engine.
 
Steve

[JLM]

Next time I get ready to spend money on audio I'll contact you, because if you can set up a computer based source for me (as dumb as I am about computers) you can probably satisfy anyone.   

They're terrified of networking.  I hear really incredible questions regarding networking every day.  People prefer to spend more to get less due to that fear.  They will even argue about stuff about which they are clearly out of their depth.
I've been trying to start a business to help with this but I haven't figured out how to reach that market yet.

[MaxCast]

A few more questions on this topic.

Can the mini still be used as a computer while music is playing?

Is a mac mini a hard wired system?

Would apples remote replace ipeng remote for control via iphone/touch?

[NekoAudio]

A few more questions on this topic.

Can the mini still be used as a computer while music is playing?

Is a mac mini a hard wired system?

Would apples remote replace ipeng remote for control via iphone/touch?

Yes, you can still use it for regular computing activities while the music is playing.

I'm not really sure what you mean by a hard wired system. If you're referring to network access, it has built-in wireless support.

You can use the little remote control for controlling playback in iTunes. I find the remote quite nice myself.

[Wayne1]

Rich,

It depends how far you want to take the Mac Mini. Mach 2 Tech suggests the Mac Mini be used ONLY for music playback. If you have other operations going on within the computer, they might affect the playback.

[MaxCast]

by wired I meant   drive wire mini wire dac wire preamp...
With this set up it would be wise to keep it close to the stereo components.  Not too suitable for computing and internet.

little remote??  I'm guessing the mini has a little remote with basic functions.  I was referring to the remote app for the phone/touch.  This would be the preferred remote since ipeng is used only with squeeze box??

[MaxCast]

Thanks Wayne, I figured as much.  I could use a new computer and would consider a mini if I can be convinced of an improvement over an new windows machine.  But, it would have to do dual duty as I can afford only one and fit logistically in my room.