[werd]

Hello folks

The best thing anyone can do for them selves is to develop a cable strategy. Ironically somebody new to the hobby i would not recommend anything but very basic rca's. Only because good cables are expensive and they require experience in their own listening tastes. Somebody new won't know how to develop a cable strategy in their own taste and they may not like mine.  Developing a personal strategy isn't hard but it takes time. The best cable advice you can give anybody is just by talking about your own and hopefully they will pick up on the hobby aspect of it and take it seriously. Unfortunately there are too many people on these boards who troll the whole subject so it's hard to be taken seriously.

But

Speaker cables are the most important cable. They are the last cable in the chain and if they are lousy everything before it will suffer, so why bother?. I think the cable that offers the most significant tweak in sound stage taste is your source to pre connect. This position has the most affect on your source and will generally change up all the bothersome effects cabling can have on your system. This includes hash and noise generating around your source (especially in digital).

gotta love your cabling 

[Occam]

Antennas on a low impedance speaker feed? Does anyone realize how improbable that is? You might pick up a nearby lightning strike...

Raindance,

I don't believe Danny asserted or implied any such thing.
Danny wrote:

And it doesn't work that way. If you have two sets of cables hooked up to the back of a speaker but switch between them with a switch box at the source, then you still have two sets of cables hooked up to the speakers. Even though only one set is live at a time as far as carrying the signal, both sets are active all the time as being an antenna. So you get some effects of then both even though you are using just one. The best way to compare is to disconnect and connect.

My reaction was that indeed an extraneous, parallel connected cable is an antenna directly connected to the high impedance feedback node. I also thought that the parallel capacitance is also a strong factor, affecting phase margin, also via the feedback node.

Regardless, wouldn't you agree that when all is said and done, connecting the cable not under test in parallel at one end to the actual cable under test is silly, and would severely compromise any comparative test?

FWIW,
Paul

[jwalker]

Raindance,

I don't believe Danny asserted or implied any such thing.

Actually Danny did call speaker wire antennas. Look at reply #11.

I'm sure a statement like that would raise a few eyebrows among RF engineers.

[mort]

Our previous house was directly in line with the flightpath of National Guard aircraft that used to fly over all the time. Several times in the middle of the night, I was awakened to a gawdawful sound (I used to keep my system on 24/7) coming from my family room. I was picking up interference from the radio being used by the flight crew. I could hear a thump, thump, thump sound coming through both speakers as they clicked their microphone. Turns out I had two runs of speaker cable lying side-by-side along the baseboards. One set was to my main speakers in the house and the other set fed some outdoor speakers we had on our 3 season porch. It does happen. 

Do you think that that noise would still be preseptable if your pre amp and amplifier were turned off? These raidio interferences have to be amplified to be heard wich means they are beeing introduced before the amplifier and the speaker wires. I believe I have picked up low level hums by running interconects (RCAs) too close to high amperage D/C cabels. no matter what you hear better or worse its not due to a antenna effect on the already amplified speaker conductors. Even leaving out the signal to noise ratio its just not electricaly possible.

[Dan Banquer]

Yes it is possible to pick up radio interference through speaker cables but you have to be near some very strong fields.
Please note this article I wrote some six years ago:
http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/bulletproofing-your-system-from-interference

Please also note that RF really does not "sneak" it's way in to an amplifier through the feedback loop as the feedback is always referenced to the input.

Regards;
      Dan Banquer

[satfrat]

Yes it is possible to pick up radio interference through speaker cables but you have to be near some very strong fields.
Please note this article I wrote some six years ago:
http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/bulletproofing-your-system-from-interference

Please also note that RF really does not "sneak" it's way in to an amplifier through the feedback loop as the feedback is always referenced to the input.

Regards;
      Dan Banquer

All the more reason for the usefullness of Ground Controls (or in my case Ground Enhancers) at the ends of -speaker/amp terminals. My speaker cables never ever sounded this good til their recent introduction(4 weeks now). Whatever the reason for their usefullness, I'll leave for the experts, me I'll just sit back and enjoy. (Batman agrees that's the real thruth) 
 
Cheers,
Robin

[mort]

Now what you are talking about would be two of them. One at the front and one at the back. Do you realize how many other sets of wires and connections you are adding to the signal path? All of that stuff has a considerable effect. Trust me, it is very easy to just switch cables.
[/quote]
As a marine elecrtician I am used to building complicated relay switching systems on extreamly sensitive circuits. I drew a picture and it is really not very complicated at all. If you use two double pole double throw high quality gold plated relays you efectivly only add 4 new connections. this is to say that you use  the same high quality speaker cable between the amp and switching box and the speaker and switching box. Inside the relay switching box you would have a 4 or 6 foot speaker cable of the same high quality as the one used externaly, parrelelled but disconected on both sides by a poor quality cable of the same gage and length. If you consider the thosands of conections between the musician, recording board, outboard prossesing, mastering, recording, your playback method your pre amp, your amp and finaly your speakers. I beleive adding four high quality connections will be neglagible. Cheers, Mort

[Guy 13]

Roger Russell is a joke. 

Take a look at the speakers he designed and what's used inside: http://www.ids25.com/literature.htm

Hi all Audio Circle members.
Roger Russell might be as joke to you, however, he's not a joke to many others. If his products where not good at all, he could not sell his products, then he would not be in buisness anymore. I think he's still in business.
Music from a iPod is not consider high fidility to all audiophiles, however, Apple sold millions of those, does it mean it's not good it's a joke?
There are buyers for some products and there is a product for some buyers.
1,000 USD interconnect is good to the person ready to pay that much money, however, a 1,000 USD interconnect might be a joke to the audiophile on a budget, but an audiophile that have respect to other person, products and ideas will not say that the product or person that designed it is a joke.
My opinion.
Guy 13

[Guy 13]

Hi Guy, don't you dare quit making comments. You are a breath of fresh air. Reminds me of the kid that said, "hey the emperor is not wearing any clothes". I am a monoprice cable kind of guy, but after reading this thread, I am going to try or demo some high priced cables and see if I hear a difference.

Thank you for starting this post and keep em coming.

Neil

Hi Neil.
Haaaaa... I've got at least one supporter to my comments... Thanks Neil.
Well, look as if some Audio Circle members don't like fresh air and want to stay in their little cubicule breathing their own air...
There is no secret to interconnects or speaker cables performances.
Of course if you pay more, you get more, however, there is a point where if you double the dollars you don't double the quality and at the very top of the high price paid for cables, the difference become so little, that it's up to the buyer with lots of dollars to choose to pay the extra money and get very little in return.
Little or huge difference, it's up to the buyer to decide if what he bought gives him a little or big difference.
It is a known fact that if a human pay top dollars for cables, he will never say that his new ackision is no good or even inferior, I am not saying/stating that, but it is a know fact among humans. That's how most people are. It's not a earing thing anymore, it a psycological thing.
Guy 13
AKA: The joker ?
 

[Guy 13]

Guy, I am certain that Robin was kidding and taking a well spirited poke at his friend Pez. This would be the last kind of thread that he would want to moderate over there. You are totally fine. And surprisingly this thread has been pretty civil so far.
[/quote]
Hi Danny.
...and two!
You are the second one that support me, well I think?
I hope you don't mind me using your site for commenting about speaker cables, after all, speakers and cables goes hand in hand, no, yes, maybe ? ? ?
I can post my thread/comments somewhere else if you want, but I have to admit, that I prefer your site, if you mind, please tell me, the last thing I want is to have Danny Ritchie against me, I need you to sell me your good GR Research drivers and I guess you also need me as a customer, yes, no, maybe ? ? ?
Guy 13
AKA: A satisfied customer among your thousand of satisfied customers, well, maybe not thousands, but hundreds...

[Guy 13]

Relax a little.

And it doesn't work that way. If you have two sets of cables hooked up to the back of a speaker but switch between them with a switch box at the source, then you still have two sets of cables hooked up to the speakers. Even though only one set is live at a time as far as carrying the signal, both sets are active all the time as being an antenna. So you get some effects of then both even though you are using just one. The best way to compare is to disconnect and connect.

Hi Danny.
For your information, in 1967 I have graduated from the TECCART electronic institute from Montreal, Canada, even if at that time, we did not study transistors, I have studied tubes and radio, therefore I am not a complete stranger with radio waves.
Yes, radio waves can travel or be present via/in many different types of wires, however, the radio waves need to be amplified to a certain level before they can interfeer with the main signal.
Five years ago, my wife bought a super elcheapo surround system, you know the type at 50 USD with a 4" subwoofer and four satellite thin can speakers.
Well, sometimes when it's turned on, with the volume control a 11 O'clock, we can hear the news from a local radio station, of course we have to put our ears against the speakers. No need to say that this Made in China contraption as no CE approval.
I don't beleive that the radio waves could make a noticible effect and I would like to know what kind of effect it would do on the sound. Now, don't get me wrong, I am not God (Well, that you know alrerady....) and I don't know everthing, (You have noticed that also...) I could be wrong, but for now, no one came up with a logical explanation about the radio waves...
Again, not that what you claim, is not logical.
I respect your opinion, you have the right to your opinion, after all, it's your site. (Ha, ha...)
I will let other members jump in, because I am sure there are more members that want to support your idea than my own ideas. However, I am sure that I have my little bunch of supporters or should I say my fan club.
Guy 13

[Guy 13]

I believe (but could be mistaken) that through the second box, a relay box hooked up at the speaker, the other conductor was droped out of the loop at bolth speaker and amplifier. I also have a hard time believing the Antenna effect otherwise would not your speakers make precievable noises picked up from interfearing signals with the amplifiers and other electronics turned off? P.S. sorry about the explative!

Hi Mort and all Audio Circle members.
I think the best testing method and set up would be to disconnect the wires at both ends.
If you disconnect one set and re-connect another set of cable at both ends, the time it takes to make the switch over will make it more difficult to ear the difference. Why ? Well, I read many times in medical articles that the brain sound memory is of short term, compare to the visual memory. I am not saying that, ask any brain expert, they will confirm what I just wrote.
Guy

[Guy 13]

Antennas on a low impedance speaker feed? Does anyone realize how improbable that is? You might pick up a nearby lightning strike...

Hi Raindance and all other Audio Circle members.
If any radio signal waves can find their way to your amplifier, it would be via the interconnects, as the signal could be immediately amplified by the preamplifier or the voltage section of the amplifier. If the radio waves try to sneak in via the power cord, I think they would be stoped at the power transformer and the power supply filtering section of the amplifier.
I think all the audio equipment manufacturer are quite aware of the interference danger from radio waves and have solved that problem a long time ago.
Guy 13
 

[Guy 13]

I have been down this road before, and have a really well made switch box on the shelf behind me.



It has high quality relays and all Cardas binding posts.

Now what you are talking about would be two of them. One at the front and one at the back. Do you realize how many other sets of wires and connections you are adding to the signal path? All of that stuff has a considerable effect. Trust me, it is very easy to just switch cables.

Hi Danny and all other Audio Circle members.
Yes, the ideal way to make the test is to have two of your switching boxes.
No, it won't add any more lenght of wire to the set up. What you are actually adding is only one more set of contact near the speaker terminals, because both boxes are at both ends, therefore, the length of the speaker cables does not increase.
Guy 13

[Guy 13]

Our previous house was directly in line with the flightpath of National Guard aircraft that used to fly over all the time. Several times in the middle of the night, I was awakened to a gawdawful sound (I used to keep my system on 24/7) coming from my family room. I was picking up interference from the radio being used by the flight crew. I could hear a thump, thump, thump sound coming through both speakers as they clicked their microphone. Turns out I had two runs of speaker cable lying side-by-side along the baseboards. One set was to my main speakers in the house and the other set fed some outdoor speakers we had on our 3 season porch. It does happen. 

Hi Mitsuman.
(Another member with a funny name...)
I had the same problem that you mentioned above, except that the airplane or ship communications was pick up by a cheap intercom that was on 24/7. I did not actually have heard a conversation, but the thump, thump you mentionned.
Guy 13

[Guy 13]

See the pic I just posted. I tried it and it makes a difference.

Hi Danny and all Audio Circle members.
What kind of difference did it make?
Can you be more specific?
Give us more details on what differecne it made on the sound.
What was the set up and details on the wires?
Not that I don't beleive you, but I would would like to go to bed tonight knowing that I have learned something from the master DANNY !
Guy 13
Yes, I know !
You have more important things to do than to educate us !

[Guy 13]

Guy pls come back. We need you !!

Hi Chlorofille and all Audio Circle members.
I am now up to three supporters, thanks Chlorofille.
Will I be able to reach the magical number of one million supporters?
Well, I can live with only three supporters.
Yes, I am back and ready to makes some waves, well not big waves, but waves...
Guy 13

[Guy 13]

I agree!

Hi Danny and all Audio Circle members.
Danny, thanks, but you are already in my fan club of the three supporters.
Guy 13

[Guy 13]

Batman agrees too. 

Thanks Satfrat.
Should I count Robin in?
That would make four supporters, we are still very far from that magical number of one million, but what can I say? I am not Elvis Presley, therefore I have to accepot a more modest fan club of supporters.
Guy 13

[Guy 13]

As a new person to the realm of "higher" end sound, (above what the avg consumer would buy if they wanted to get "The Best" they could find at BB, CC, or Sears ) I think a lot of these discussions are quite interesting....

While sound and the various frequencies above or below what we can hear are is identifiable, measurable, quantifiable, etc., how each of us hears them is not.  At least at this point.  The actual listening part of music is 100% subjective.  Now, most people agree that a good steak is better than a piece of chuck (atleast when prepared the same), how the steak is prepared matters to each individual, and is not necessarily quantifiable with simple measurements.  The measurement says the steak is "Medium Well" and a "Choice" sirloin.  But what if I like a little more fat and I like my steak rare.  Someone else could like it well and VERY lean and dry.  Neither of us is wrong, it is simply a subjective measurement....

Audio is that.  While we can agree on many things, subtle things could be audible or inaudible to some folks period, not even factoring in the differences in these folks systems.  And if the person who believes X does not effect sound enjoys their music, as well as the person who believes it does matter, why should either be offended?  It is an OPINION about a SUBJECTIVE piece of data. 

I do think that those that have not tried something yet should have an open mind and try it unless there are bad consequences to trying (ie trying out jumping off a bridge or trying out drunk driving) or religious problems.

Luckily changing caps, resistors and cables doesn’t have the bad consequences.  So EVERYONE can try it, and decide for themselves.

As an Engineer who is back in school for the 3rd time, I liked, and noticed, the changes I have experienced as I changed cables.  Even though I can’t throw them in the hypersonic wind tunnel I am working in and measure what they change

Hi Praedet.
Well writen thread, I agree with you.
Guy 13