The thruth about speaker cables...

corndog71 · « **Reply #20 on:** 2 Dec 2010, 06:22 pm »

Yeah, that roger russel website has all kinds of problems with its testing and conclusions. The worst of it is that they compare monster to other wires of the exact same geometry. It's no surprise to me that they couldn't detect differences because the wires being tested were essentially the same. Let's throw some Kimber Kable TC in there and see what happens.

Hearing differences in cables is what got me into this hobby 15 or so years ago. The value of those differences will always be up for debate. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy expensive cables.

DaveC113 · « **Reply #21 on:** 2 Dec 2010, 06:30 pm »

Quote from: Danny on 2 Dec 2010, 03:33 pm

I do believe that some people just do not hear differences regardless, and some peoples systems are such that differences will be minimal. For some people the price of high end cables does not match well with the budget price point of the rest of their systems and would make no sense for that person.

So true, and it isn't saying that people that don't hear differences have bad systems or can't hear, some people are just more sensitive than others.

This became obvious to me as I was shopping for TVs recently. I realized at some point that I just don't care that much and a mid-level set at 1/3 the price is fine for how sensitive I am toward video quality. At first I couldn't see much differences until more experienced videophiles pointed it out. Then I could appreciate the differences but decided that I don't really care that much.

I think audio is similar, a lot of people want good quality but aren't sensitive enough to hear or care about what they feel are subtle differences. Definitely easier that way...

Mitsuman · « **Reply #22 on:** 2 Dec 2010, 06:41 pm »

I normally know better than to dip my toes in shark infested waters such as these, but against my better judgement, here goes.

Most of these discussions center around something sounding "different." My problem with this is that normally the ones hearing the "difference", immediately equate "different" to "better." Different is just that, different. It doesn't automatically mean better.

Secondly, I find that many of these people that hear a "difference", and equate it to "better", invariably cop, IMHO, a pompous attitude and make comments directed at the doubters that sound like pure arrogance to me. They seem to denegrate anyone who doesn't agree with them by attacking their "sub-par" system and/or their intelligence or hearing.

If the two things I mentioned didn't happen in just about every cable debate, I think we might actually be able to keep things civil, and all learn something valuable. Just my $.02

johnzm · « **Reply #23 on:** 2 Dec 2010, 06:59 pm »

i had an experience where the gear did prevent me from hearing the difference. i had tried some cables that i did hear a difference with, and purchased those, and tested out another pair that i didnt hear any difference from plain old monoprice (all of these are interconnects).

after i had upgraded almost everything in my setup, i tried those same cables again and heard a pretty nice difference. picked those up as well. so i personally do hear differences and so far, for my gear, it has been for the positive.

i did also have an experience with silver interconnects where it negativly effected the sound.

*Scotty* · « **Reply #24 on:** 2 Dec 2010, 07:17 pm »

I think it is certainly possible to have a system that is incapable of allowing you to hear the differences between speaker cables and ICs. I owned just such a system back in 1987. I built speaker wires out of Hitachi LCOFC 24ga.teflon insulated wire laid out like Nordost Flatline.
I had eight evenly spaced 24ga. wires sandwiched between two pieces of polypropylene packing tape. Very low inductance and capacitance. I couldn't tell the difference between this cable and good ole Monster cable. I had MGIIIs,Hafler DH 220,DH 500,DH 110 preamp. I could barely hear the difference between IC's ,we are talking threshold of perception stuff.
I know I had better hearing 27 years ago as well. I think some people are untrained listeners and don't know what to listen for but there is no way the equipment used to make the evaluations doesn't figure into the equation.
Scotty

jneutron · « **Reply #25 on:** 2 Dec 2010, 07:44 pm »

Quote from: Mitsuman on 2 Dec 2010, 06:41 pm

Secondly, I find that many of these people that hear a "difference", and equate it to "better", invariably cop, IMHO, a pompous attitude and make comments directed at the doubters that sound like pure arrogance to me.

I agree. Of course, I also see the exact same attitude displayed by the engineering types as well.

Quote from: Mitsuman on 2 Dec 2010, 06:41 pm

They seem to denegrate anyone who doesn't agree with them by attacking their "sub-par" system and/or their intelligence or hearing.

Do what I do. I leave my intelligence at home, that way it can't get damaged by careless handling..or worn out.

Cheers, John

Danny Richie · « **Reply #26 on:** 2 Dec 2010, 07:53 pm »

Quote

By the way, I have made tests on three different type and makes of cables that I own now.
Made in China. 14ga. not OFC, 10 ft long.
Made in Canada 14ga. not OFC, not OFC and purchased 20 years ago.
Made in USA by Signal Audio, 14 ga. OFC, I've paid 85 USD.
Which one sounds better?
I heard very little difference between all of them and maybe the small differences I've heard was my imagination.

Guy, no worries. I would expect little to no difference from all of those. Those are all on about the same level. You made lateral moves just like the guy in the link that you posted.

turkey · « **Reply #27 on:** 2 Dec 2010, 08:20 pm »

Quote from: jneutron on 2 Dec 2010, 07:44 pm

Do what I do. I leave my intelligence at home, that way it can't get damaged by careless handling..or worn out.

I tried that, but my wife kept putting it away somewhere and I could never find it.

Rclark · « **Reply #28 on:** 2 Dec 2010, 08:41 pm »

Guy13 you are totally bananas.I hope it's okay for me to say that in a fun way again.

No disrespect buy I have to question how good your hearing is these days? You probably aren't as capable of hearing what younger ears can pick up on easily.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #29 on:** 2 Dec 2010, 08:55 pm »

I have some friends that have gotten a little older and have some hearing loss. Typically it is the upper ranges that go. However, I have noticed that their hearing in the range that they can hear is very good.

Mr. Clark has high frequency hearing loss (he posts here often) but he is really quick to notice differences in power cables, interconnects, speaker cables, etc.

Another friend of mine that is about 62 years old has been loosing his hearing and says that it is nothing like anything he ever thought it would be. In a quiet room he can hear quite well and distinguish everything quite well. However, in a noisy room, he can distinguish anything. It all runs together.

Some older people still hear quite well too.

Thank goodness for me it is just my eyes that are going.

wywires · « **Reply #30 on:** 2 Dec 2010, 09:03 pm »

Probably nothing wrong with Guy's ears. He was comparing almost the same cables with identical geometry and maybe slighly different metallurgy.

Mitsuman · « **Reply #31 on:** 2 Dec 2010, 09:10 pm »

Quote from: jneutron on 2 Dec 2010, 07:44 pm

I agree. Of course, I also see the exact same attitude displayed by the engineering types as well.

Do what I do. I leave my intelligence at home, that way it can't get damaged by careless handling..or worn out.

Cheers, John

I see many folks must be doing the same thing.

Voncarlos · « **Reply #32 on:** 2 Dec 2010, 09:17 pm »

Hi Guy,

Ya know . . . it's all part of the journey.
BTW, I saw on another post that you were looking into adding some acoustic panels to your listening room, I just finished (well almost finished, I'm still on the journey

) doing exactly that and posted about it on the Acoustics Circle. Take a look, http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=85842.0

Good Luck & good listening!
Carlos

TONEPUB · « **Reply #33 on:** 2 Dec 2010, 09:33 pm »

Quote from: jtwrace on 2 Dec 2010, 05:34 pm

Have you read what the AVA guys say?

Yes, but I don't agree with them. Again, I don't think cables are night and day, but I do think they do make a meaningful difference. That's why we produce very few cable reviews and only accept advertising from a couple of cable vendors. I could have 20 pages of cable ads in TONEAudio tomorrow if I wanted to, but I just feel it is confusing to our readers.

If you don't hear a difference, don't spend the money, it's that easy. I don't think any more or less of you.

turkey · « **Reply #34 on:** 2 Dec 2010, 09:48 pm »

Quote from: TONEPUB on 2 Dec 2010, 09:33 pm

Yes, but I don't agree with them. Again, I don't think cables are night and day, but I do think they do make a meaningful difference. That's why we produce very few cable reviews and only accept advertising from a couple of cable vendors. I could have 20 pages of cable ads in TONEAudio tomorrow if I wanted to, but I just feel it is confusing to our readers.

The fact that you get paid by wire vendors renders your opinions about wire suspect.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #35 on:** 2 Dec 2010, 09:55 pm »

Quote from: turkey on 2 Dec 2010, 09:48 pm

The fact that you get paid by wire vendors renders your opinions about wire suspect.

I don't think so. If you read his posts then you will see that he is not exactly trying to talk people into buying high end cables at all, let alone from any of his paying advertisers.

Wayner · « **Reply #36 on:** 2 Dec 2010, 10:10 pm »

Well, us guys at AVA aren't any cult followers either. Sure there isn't anything wrong with a nicely constructed speaker cable, clean copper and a nice, appropriate wire gauge, but certainly exotic cables are always suspect.

The real joke is the term oxygen free copper. There are processes involved that remove impurities from copper and that is what we want. Low resistance and capacitance.

I seek the truth as well. The real truth.

Wayner

*Scotty* · « **Reply #37 on:** 2 Dec 2010, 10:18 pm »

Once again I think the equipment upstream of the speaker cables should be considered a hard ceiling on what you may hear from your system when comparing cables.
If you look around see people who own specific brands of speakers or electronics offering anecdotal
that they universally do not hear any differences between ICs and speaker cables you have Prima-Facie
evidence that the common factor involved maybe limiting what can be heard. Or the way I look it,that many people can't be hearing impaired.
Speaking of what is possible,I have a good friend who has a customer that is deaf in one ear and uses a hearing aid in the other. He still enjoys the hobby and he can easily hear the difference between components and cables. However,he is an experienced listener and no novice.
Scotty

Cheeseboy · « **Reply #38 on:** 2 Dec 2010, 10:22 pm »

My system sounds better in the wintertime when everyone is not running thier air conditioners and refridgerators full time. The wire I was using was acting as a big lightning rod for interference. Don't ask be what type of interference as I'm not a science guy I'm just a user of this gear. I moved up to well shielded interconnects. The wire itself was from Belden a well respected name in wire manufacturing. Problem solved. It was a difference that most people could easily hear. I have since tried several more exspensive interconnects. They do make subtle changes to the way my system sounds. I would keep a couple of them in the future but I'm changing alot of gear out.

The truth about cables is out there for you to experience for yourself.

*Scotty* · « **Reply #39 on:** 2 Dec 2010, 10:22 pm »

You can't Handel the truth! But you might like Mozart.
Sorry Wayner, I couldn't resist the straight-line

Scotty