[dBe]

Hi all Audio Circle members.
I have been reading some of the threads about capacitors cross over up grades and I am sure that you guys are not imaginating things, there must be a difference, however, I will do my own blind test, because for me, blind test is the only way to hear if there is a difference. I want to make sure that if I invest money in a up grade, I will hear a difference, a big difference.
Guy 13

Guy, some changes are subtle at first listen, but translate to much lower listener's fatigue in the long term.

The way I do most of my upgrades is to listen to no more than 3 components during an audition, pick the one out that I "think" will be the best of the three and insert it into the system.  I will then listen to the new configuration for at least a week and then revert the system to the prior consist.  If I can't immediately pick out which configuration I like the best - that is a null test.  It is easy to tell something that is very good when it is removed from the system.

Of course there are some changes that do not require the extended listening to identify as BAD choices.  They will let you know that they suck in an hour or two.   

Dave

[Danny Richie]

Thanks a lot Bob. I really appreciate you having people over for a listen.

[teros1]

Thanks a lot Bob. I really appreciate you having people over for a listen.

My pleasure...

[timind]

Guy, some changes are subtle at first listen, but translate to much lower listener's fatigue in the long term.

The way I do most of my upgrades is to listen to no more than 3 components during an audition, pick the one out that I "think" will be the best of the three and insert it into the system.  I will then listen to the new configuration for at least a week and then revert the system to the prior consist.  If I can't immediately pick out which configuration I like the best - that is a null test.  It is easy to tell something that is very good when it is removed from the system.

Of course there are some changes that do not require the extended listening to identify as BAD choices.  They will let you know that they suck in an hour or two.   

Dave

That is my experience also. Other than speakers I rarely hear much difference upon insertion of any new pieces. It takes time for me to get accustomed to the sound of any component.
When I read someone say they put in a new IC and heard a HUGE improvement immediately I am a bit skeptical.

[dBe]

That is my experience also. Other than speakers I rarely hear much difference upon insertion of any new pieces. It takes time for me to get accustomed to the sound of any component.
When I read someone say they put in a new IC and heard a HUGE improvement immediately I am a bit skeptical.

Anytime anyone puts a "new" component in and immediately says that it is much better I just smile and say: "Wait.  It's gonna change."  I will often hear differences, but different is only different.  Better is better.  To make a semi-objective choice in a subjective situation requires that all of the DUT are broken in... uh, oh.  I opened a different can there, huh?

Dave

[Danny Richie]

Wow! I just now checked that link (that was placed in this thread earlier) to the thread on AVS that is following this thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1279823

The number or personal attacks is amazing. 

I guess giving people an opportunity to listen to something and compare for themselves is just too much for some of them. They are throwing stones at me, at the whole idea of the comparison, how the listening comparisons might be made, and just nit picking the whole process. I even see a few that still have an axe to grind with me.

And something tells me that none of them will want to be on the auditioning list. 

[dyohn]

It's always been this way.  There are three discussions sure to get people riled up and ready to fight for their position no matter what: politics, religion, and audio. 

[dBe]

Wow! I just now checked that link (that was placed in this thread earlier) to the thread on AVS that is following this thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1279823

The number or personal attacks is amazing. 

I guess giving people an opportunity to listen to something and compare for themselves is just too much for some of them. They are throwing stones at me, at the whole idea of the comparison, how the listening comparisons might be made, and just nit picking the whole process. I even see a few that still have an axe to grind with me.

And something tells me that none of them will want to be on the auditioning list. 

Danny, there are some people that just want to kick our subjective butts anywhere that they can.  You, I and the others that have actually taken the time and made the effort to do the listening tests know what we hear.  I am not really surprised that the usual suspects are after you.  You have a following   They just can't let go, can they?

Dave

[S Clark]

After a while, listening to people tell me that what I hear is invalid just becomes so much noise.  The ONLY thing that ultimately matters is what I hear.  Now, over the years, I have learned to pay attention to the advise of several of our knowledgeable members here at AC, including Danny.  But even those opinions don't carry the weight of what my own ears tell me, and that is absolute end of the argument.  For those that refuse to listen to an A/B test and then pontificate on what the results should be based on their entrenched positions, is a sad statement about the lengths that we go to hold to a belief.   

[corndog71]

Wow! I just now checked that link (that was placed in this thread earlier) to the thread on AVS that is following this thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1279823

The number or personal attacks is amazing. 

I guess giving people an opportunity to listen to something and compare for themselves is just too much for some of them. They are throwing stones at me, at the whole idea of the comparison, how the listening comparisons might be made, and just nit picking the whole process. I even see a few that still have an axe to grind with me.

And something tells me that none of them will want to be on the auditioning list. 

I just read that whole thread and you weren't kidding.  They sure have an opinion about people having an opinion!

Ultimately, I think the problem lies with the idea that some guys trust their ears and some guys don't.  Kinda like Dantheman avoided anything to do with his subjective opinion. 

I think it's partly an ego thing too.  Some people just can't handle being proven wrong.  Of course they can say the same about us.  The difference is in the effort.  Those who don't even try automatically fail to back up their claims.

My opinion is if someone doesn't trust their ears then they should probably get out of the audio hobby.

[genjamon]

My opinion is if someone doesn't trust their ears then they should probably get out of the audio hobby.

Good point, and I heartily agree.  At the same time, I have a suspicion that it isn't so much an "audio" hobby for a lot of these guys, more like an "electronics" hobby.  Their interest is more in geeking out about audio circuits and such, with sound as a secondary factor.  Oh yeah, and the ego thing too.  It sure does spoil the creative spirit to throw the baby out with the snake oil...

[dyohn]

Good point, and I heartily agree.  At the same time, I have a suspicion that it isn't so much an "audio" hobby for a lot of these guys, more like an "electronics" hobby. 

Or, perhaps, a "slamming other people in forums" hobby. 

[dBe]

Or, perhaps, a "slamming other people in forums" hobby. 

There are a lot of very brave people that hide behind the safety of a moniker, a keyboard and distance.  The kids that got their butts kicked consistently on the schoolground for being less than civil and never got over it.

I know where two of those guys live.  I feel better knowing that they are on the east coast and I'm not.   

As an old guy, I'm very happy about the second amendment and my CCW with some of the emails I've gotten from people over capacitors and wire.      Just think what would happen with a female thrown into the mix.    Testosterone and scotch are highly overrated, methinks.

Dave

[S Clark]

Testosterone and scotch are highly overrated, methinks.

Dave

I dunno about that Dave.  As the years go by, the testosterone gets less important, but the scotch gets better and better. (Even though it takes me about a year to go through a bottle)

[corndog71]

Good point, and I heartily agree.  At the same time, I have a suspicion that it isn't so much an "audio" hobby for a lot of these guys, more like an "electronics" hobby.  Their interest is more in geeking out about audio circuits and such, with sound as a secondary factor.   Oh yeah, and the ego thing too.  It sure does spoil the creative spirit to throw the baby out with the snake oil...

Also a good point. 

[django11]

Hand them a bottle of wine and do they taste it or measure it?   

[AK]

8in poly woofer playing up to 2khz, doesn't sound right. 8in poly cone starts "misbehaving" around 600 hz.
I know, poly cone has the most tamed resonance compared to other materials, but it's still there.
Before trying to distinguish sound of crossover components, overall design has to be fixed.
Sorry, but I think quality of crossover components in this application is irrelevant, provided that components are not defective 

[dBe]

8in poly woofer playing up to 2khz, doesn't sound right. 8in poly cone starts "misbehaving" around 600 hz.
I know, poly cone has the most tamed resonance compared to other materials, but it's still there.
Before trying to distinguish sound of crossover components, overall design has to be fixed.
Sorry, butI think quality of crossover components in this application is irrelevant, provided that components are not defective 

Generally speaking I would agree with you on the driver size choice, but reality is there are a lot of 8" 2-ways out there that sound pretty good.  AAMOF I have Dayton 8" fullranges that sounded quite good... considering the 4K breakup mode.  I am now using  high-Q notch filters on them to suppress the modes and they sound freakin' awesome for the money and the simplicity.  I built the first filters out of some junk parts to zero in on the design and then built them with very good components and the difference is not subtle.  There is just "more" of the good stuff in the tunes with quality parts.  This is important to me because I spend my day listening to music in my office/shop while soldering and building away.  'Tis the life of a small audio business man... and I love it.

There are a lot of us that will tweak anything i guess - the "Tim the Tool Man Tayor" syndrome.

Dave

[corndog71]

8in poly woofer playing up to 2khz, doesn't sound right. 8in poly cone starts "misbehaving" around 600 hz.
I know, poly cone has the most tamed resonance compared to other materials, but it's still there.
Before trying to distinguish sound of crossover components, overall design has to be fixed.
Sorry, but I think quality of crossover components in this application is irrelevant, provided that components are not defective 

Once again, without listening, it is you who doesn't get it.

[vlad335]

The DCR of the smaller gauge iron core inductor (stock) and the 16 gauge Erse XQ is pretty close.

When measuring a speaker an increase in DCR shows up in the frequency response as decreased output in the bottom end. These two measure pretty much identical.

I think the point will be made when people listen for themselves.

Hello,

Could you do me a great favor? I am away from my B2031p's and would like to order these crossover parts. Could you share the values needed for the Sonicaps and mills resistors? I got the Erse XQ Inductor. Obviously 2.0) Very much appreciate it. Thanks!