Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.

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Danny Richie

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Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« on: 9 Nov 2010, 05:27 pm »
Here is your chance to learn something.

This is for all the objectivist that think parts are parts, wire is wire, all capacitors are the same, yadda, yadda, yadda....

This is a continuation of this thread regarding the upgrading of parts quality in this inexpensive little speaker from Behringer.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=83841.0

It is the B2031P "The truth!" The real truth was that it needed some help. Follow the thread:



Read about the speaker here: http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/B2031P.aspx

Okay, I measured the values used in one of the stock crossovers and made an identical crossover to the stock one using Sonicaps, a Mills resistor and an Erse XQ air core inductor.



One main switch is used to switch the shunt components in or out of the circuit from each network being used or not used. I later added a switch in each woofer circuit of each network to switch each entire circuit in or out.

The crossover are mounted inside and the three switches are mounted on the binding post cup.

As you can see the cabinets have also been lined with No Rez to remove some of the coloration of the cabinet resonances that were masking some of the bass and lower mid-range. Some additional fiberglass insolation was used as well and install behind the woofer.



There are tube connectors used for the upgraded network and the stock binding post are used for the stock network.

All switches up towards the stock binding post, and the stock binding posts and stock crossover is used. All switches down, and the lower tube connectors are used with the higher quality crossover parts.

I also had my good friends at Electra Cable make a nice set of speaker cables with dual ends. It has standard banana plugs for the stock crossover and the male studs that fit the tube connectors.

So you use one set of plugs or the other and not both at the same time. So switching is pretty quick. Move some connectors form one to the other and flick three switches.

See Electra Cable tube connectors here: http://www.electracable.com/tubeconnector.htm

The cables and crossover have been playing now for several weeks and have now settle in. That's right, they needed burn in time.

The difference between the two networks is very apparent (night and day), so if the nay sayers can't hear this level of differences then they probably really should consider hobbies outside of high end audio.

I am willing to let these be sent all over the country to various listening groups. Someone receiving them must be responsible for them though. So whoever that person is will need to contact me with credit card information needed for securing them while they have them.

The next person or group in line will need to contact me to do the same.

I will then forward shipping information to whoever has them and they (or that group) will be responsible for shipping them to the next auditioning person or group.

Let the fun begin!
« Last Edit: 17 Feb 2015, 05:07 am by Danny Richie »

jtwrace

Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #1 on: 9 Nov 2010, 05:31 pm »
Now this will be fun to read! 

How do YOU think they sound?

Danny Richie

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #2 on: 9 Nov 2010, 05:42 pm »
Now this will be fun to read! 

How do YOU think they sound?

They are fairly well balanced as the frequency response shows. Nothing glares out as bad.

The drawbacks are that big poly woofer lacks resolution in the vocal region. It has that plasticy sound about it that is a bit un-natural. Bass is kind of boxy sounding at times and a little heavy, but much better than it was stock. Stuffing the ports might help with some music, but for now, they are left open.  The square shaped box is not helping matters in that regard either. Not something that I would buy, but then again, they are dirt cheap.

I have to thank Rich Hollis for donating this pair. Hopefully someone might want to keep them in the end and maybe Rich and I can break even on the cost of this education process.

Danny Richie

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #3 on: 9 Nov 2010, 05:51 pm »

Here is a pic of the back.



And here is the custom made, 10 foot long pair of cables from Electra Cable.



I figured it would be better if the speakers were at least not being held back by zip cord speaker cables. The bummer is that the cables cost more than the speakers.  :lol:



werd

Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #4 on: 9 Nov 2010, 06:09 pm »
Wow, excellent  In yo face to all the naysayers. glad to see this wasn't a forgotten endeavor.

turkey

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #5 on: 9 Nov 2010, 06:11 pm »

Okay, I measured the values used in one of the stock crossovers and made an identical crossover to the stock one using Sonicaps, a Mills resistor and an Erse XQ air core inductor.

Just a quick glance shows that the DCR of the new inductor is likely to be different from that of the old, plus we don't know if the inductor Behringer used was even properly spec'ed, or whether it saturated under load because they skimped on it. In other words, the new crossover is not identical to the old.

You may very well have turned a sow's ear into a silk purse. I don't know whether you did or not. However, I don't see that you've made your point.


Danny Richie

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #6 on: 9 Nov 2010, 06:22 pm »
The DCR of the smaller gauge iron core inductor (stock) and the 16 gauge Erse XQ is pretty close.

When measuring a speaker an increase in DCR shows up in the frequency response as decreased output in the bottom end. These two measure pretty much identical.

Quote
However, I don't see that you've made your point.

I think the point will be made when people listen for themselves.

Tyson

Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #7 on: 9 Nov 2010, 06:29 pm »
When people say they can't hear the difference in parts or wire quality, I believe them!  They cannot hear the difference. 

Danny Richie

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #8 on: 9 Nov 2010, 06:34 pm »
When people say they can't hear the difference in parts or wire quality, I believe them!  They cannot hear the difference.

Yep, that's true. That same guy might even think that the guy setting next to them, that says he can hear the difference, is out of his mind.

I think the real problem is that when people hear no difference and conclude that "there is no difference" verses "I heard no difference".

satfrat

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #9 on: 9 Nov 2010, 06:37 pm »
The DCR of the smaller gauge iron core inductor (stock) and the 16 gauge Erse XQ is pretty close.

When measuring a speaker an increase in DCR shows up in the frequency response as decreased output in the bottom end. These two measure pretty much identical.

I think the point will be made when people listen for themselves.

ONLY if the listener's head isn't as squeeky clean as his ears always are. There's gotta be something in there that's willing to hear a difference or are willing to accept the chance that others are hearing a difference in the 1st place.  :D
 
Quote
I've tried them and so have lots of other people. Clean ears are happy ears.
 

Cheers,
Robin

turkey

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #10 on: 9 Nov 2010, 06:45 pm »

I think the point will be made when people listen for themselves.

Well, no. But that's ok too.

goskers

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #11 on: 9 Nov 2010, 09:51 pm »
Danny,

Did you ever have the chance to take measurements of the power response with both the stock and upgraded?  I would love to see these with on-axis, 15, 30, 45 degrees.

Thanks.

HAL

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #12 on: 9 Nov 2010, 11:09 pm »
Now this is really getting interesting!  :thumb:

Danny Richie

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #13 on: 9 Nov 2010, 11:41 pm »
Danny,

Did you ever have the chance to take measurements of the power response with both the stock and upgraded?  I would love to see these with on-axis, 15, 30, 45 degrees.

Thanks.

Vertical and horizontal off axis measurments were posted in that first thread. The upgraded crossover did not change any of that.

Niteshade

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #14 on: 9 Nov 2010, 11:53 pm »
Very nice experiment!

I have a couple questions:

Would you say that the original components were appropriate for the job? It sounds like they were not since the performance could be improved.

If you were to use the original components (providing they are appropriate for the job), could you make a superior circuit with only them that could out-perform your new crossover using the original circuit, but with better components?

opnly bafld

Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #15 on: 9 Nov 2010, 11:58 pm »
Very nice experiment!

I have a couple questions:

Would you say that the original components were appropriate for the job? It sounds like they were not since the performance could be improved.

If you were to use the original components (providing they are appropriate for the job), could you make a superior circuit with only them that could out-perform your new crossover using the original circuit, but with better components?

You need to read the original thread.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=83233.0

Niteshade

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #16 on: 10 Nov 2010, 12:31 am »
I see..

There are undoubtedly cheap parts on the market and replacing inferior components will make a difference much of the time.

There's really no argument regarding the original thread. If the parts were no good for the job, but just good enough to get the speaker to market- replacing them seems like a logical choice if you want a better product for a little extra money.

corndog71

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #17 on: 10 Nov 2010, 03:02 am »
The point is to show the audible difference between the stock and the better parts despite the fact that on paper they don't measure any different.

It's funny.  Before I became a regular here I never really thought about upgrading the crossovers of a speaker yet it was hearing cable differences that got me into this hobby.  Now I can't imagine having a speaker and not upgrading it.  (Although the Monitor Audio Silver-RS6 is one of the best stock speakers I've heard for the money!)

dBe

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #18 on: 10 Nov 2010, 04:27 am »
Now this is really getting interesting!  :thumb:
Rich, I'm with you.  Always interesting to see the lines in the sand.

Dave

Niteshade

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #19 on: 10 Nov 2010, 11:54 am »
The stock parts were surmised as being inferior. Naturally a difference will be heard with better parts. This has nothing to do with "flat Earthers". Even a flat Earther would agree that inferior components, or components not designed for the job they are doing will not work well.

What if those components were not inferior? If this were the case, then the debate would be centered around which brand is better since quality is taken out of the equation.



The point is to show the audible difference between the stock and the better parts despite the fact that on paper they don't measure any different.

It's funny.  Before I became a regular here I never really thought about upgrading the crossovers of a speaker yet it was hearing cable differences that got me into this hobby.  Now I can't imagine having a speaker and not upgrading it.  (Although the Monitor Audio Silver-RS6 is one of the best stock speakers I've heard for the money!)