Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.

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stevenkelby

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #20 on: 10 Nov 2010, 12:38 pm »
The stock parts were surmised as being inferior. Naturally a difference will be heard with better parts. This has nothing to do with "flat Earthers". Even a flat Earther would agree that inferior components, or components not designed for the job they are doing will not work well.

What if those components were not inferior? If this were the case, then the debate would be centered around which brand is better since quality is taken out of the equation.




You seem to miss the whole point :)

I think the point seems to be that the stock parts do not measure as being inferior, yet apparently they sound inferior.

That was the original arguement as far as I can tell.

PS, Danny, I got the Platinum caps today, thanks :)

jtwrace

Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #21 on: 10 Nov 2010, 12:53 pm »
The stock parts were surmised as being inferior. Naturally a difference will be heard with better parts. This has nothing to do with "flat Earthers". Even a flat Earther would agree that inferior components, or components not designed for the job they are doing will not work well.

What if those components were not inferior? If this were the case, then the debate would be centered around which brand is better since quality is taken out of the equation.

From your thread on your circle:  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=87799.msg860635;topicseen#new

There are inferior components and inferiors can provide the same values in a tester as a superior one. LCR meters ONLY test one value, they can not test how that part will react in a circuit.

People are getting things confused regarding component upgrades and not understanding precisely what I am saying. 

First, you will always see an improvement in performance or at least longevity when the right part is used for the job. This is an undeniable fact.

Second, if you're using the proper quality parts for the job to begin with, replacing them with another brand that is the same quality or even better most likely will NOT make a difference. For a circuit to perform right, it has to have the correct components installed. If performance improves when parts are exchanged, that means the original parts were not right for the job. Do you see how I am looking at things?

Third, components are made for specific jobs. For example, a photoflash capacitor should not be used as a filter in a power supply. People do it, but it's unwise because they were not made for continuous duty. Yet, a 330uf flash cap will measure exactly the same as a 330uf filter capacitor on a LCR meter. This is a case where upgrading is clearly beneficial. I want to stress the word "clearly".

Fourth, as a continuation from above, I only want to provide upgrades that are clearly upgrades. I use parts that are perfect for their jobs in all stock units. They are not cheap spinoffs. In fact, I switched over to a new coupling capacitor a while back that's using the latest manufacturing processes. They actually became smaller because the internals are higher quality and the construction process was improved. They're a industrial/commercial product and I doubt they are stressed in the slightest as a coupling cap. No stress equates to a long lifespan AND quality sound.

I have experimented with Auricaps and Sprague Black Beauties. No audible differences were detected. Experimentation was not done on any others.

Circuit sensitivity: I will share something with you: Components like to be used under the ratings printed on their casing. This goes for wattage and voltage. If the circuit is, say putting 5 watts through a 5 watt resistor, this is not good. It is a good practice to use at least a 10 watt resistor in that scenario. If someone were to use a 15uf electrolytic in place of a Tantalum in a circuit, it will work, but it may not last long.

You will find that I am a stickler for using components of the proper composition for a specific job. Not everything is interchangeable, even if they have the same values.  Folks, you are working yourselves up for nothing if you believe that all stock components from every manufacturer are inferior. This is not so! Please do not stereotype.

Are other manufacturers putting a load in your ear? ONLY if they are purposely using a $20.00 component in a location where a $5.00 one still exceeded the circuit parameters. Do you understand what I am saying? I am not talking about replacing an inferior component with a better one. You have to look at things from the circuit's standpoint and I doubt people are doing that. For example, if a circuit has 2 watt resistors in it and it's only sending 1/2 a watt through them, would it make any difference from a quality standpoint if they were replaced with 10 watt resistors? They're bigger and more expensive so it should  better, right? Absolutely not. Sure, it may look impressive and will cost more but that's it.

The bottom line: You mentioned field reports that state marked improvements after upgrading components:

1] Are they replacing inferior components?
2] Are they replacing components initially well suited for their job?

What do you know as FACT about the components being removed?

I just find it strange that you find no difference with changing caps in anything.  I wonder if your design is flawed and that's why you don't hear a difference.   :dunno:  I can say that the difference IME is night / day. 

Niteshade

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #22 on: 10 Nov 2010, 01:10 pm »
I would notice a difference if the original parts were poorly made. It doesn't sound like you read the entire post.

I agree that parts can measure the same and act differently within a circuit. That is all explained in the post you quoted. For example, a capacitor of one specific value can be made several different ways to be compatible with different circuits.

I think what you are saying is this: Exchanging parts designed to do the same job perfectly will make a difference. Under this test, neither component is inferior, just different in some fashion.


Interesting link:
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/capacitors.htm




corndog71

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #23 on: 10 Nov 2010, 04:25 pm »
Interesting link:
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/capacitors.htm

Sure, it's interesting if you think just like the author.  I happen to appreciate opinions and subjectivity for in the end it is up to our individual brains to interpret what we are hearing and make a judgement. 

jtwrace

Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #24 on: 10 Nov 2010, 04:31 pm »
Did you read the original thread? The stipulation was that upgrading component "quality" would not affect the sound of the speaker (i.e. all parts are the same).

Bingo!

turkey

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #25 on: 10 Nov 2010, 04:38 pm »

I agree that parts can measure the same and act differently within a circuit.

If they act differently in the circuit, then they won't measure the same either, unless you stick with the simplest measurements.


Danny Richie

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #26 on: 10 Nov 2010, 04:51 pm »
I would notice a difference if the original parts were poorly made. It doesn't sound like you read the entire post.

I agree that parts can measure the same and act differently within a circuit. That is all explained in the post you quoted. For example, a capacitor of one specific value can be made several different ways to be compatible with different circuits.

I think what you are saying is this: Exchanging parts designed to do the same job perfectly will make a difference. Under this test, neither component is inferior, just different in some fashion.

Interesting link:
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/capacitors.htm

Sounds like your mind set is that you look at this from the standpoint of the electrical parameters necessary for the circuit. That is not what this is about.

From an electrical standpoint there was nothing wrong with the stock crossover. At least there was nothing one would consider inferior for the job from an electrical point of view. The upgraded crossover made no change in measured responses or impedance.

However, the quality of the parts are quite different and the subjective differences between the two networks are very apparent. And we aren't just talking about "different". We are talking about "better". The result is reduced smearing (as in more space between notes), this also comes across as a lower noise floor. There is better resolution, better detail levels, cleaner vocals, and better imaging, etc.

The whole point is to give people the opportunity to hear these differences themselves. Some people claim that the use of these higher quality parts (boutique parts as they call them) will make no difference. This gives those people the opportunity to learn just how much difference it really does make.

*Scotty*

Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #27 on: 10 Nov 2010, 05:02 pm »
Danny,have run across any speaker designs where substituting better quality parts made no audible difference?
Scotty

Vapor Audio

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #28 on: 10 Nov 2010, 05:07 pm »
Pretty cool experiment Danny, nice job with the wiring making for quick and easy comparisons.   I look forward to the listening results, hopefully from some open minded sceptics. 

To the future listeners, remember that when evaluating caps it's the spatial cues that are more effected than tonality ... so for proper evaluation you need to be sitting in the sweet spot.  That means listening tests need to be done with a small number of people in the room.  I've seen too many similar listening tests where some people are 20 degrees off-axis, and predictably hear no differences. 

Danny Richie

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #29 on: 10 Nov 2010, 05:19 pm »
Danny,have run across any speaker designs where substituting better quality parts made no audible difference?
Scotty

In my system it is touch to find two different brands of parts that sound the same verses two that sound different.

Pretty cool experiment Danny, nice job with the wiring making for quick and easy comparisons.   I look forward to the listening results, hopefully from some open minded sceptics. 

To the future listeners, remember that when evaluating caps it's the spatial cues that are more effected than tonality ... so for proper evaluation you need to be sitting in the sweet spot.  That means listening tests need to be done with a small number of people in the room.  I've seen too many similar listening tests where some people are 20 degrees off-axis, and predictably hear no differences. 

That is really good advice and 100% true.

One thing that I noted in that first thread about these speakers was that the imaging tended to stack everything between the two speakers and the image height was limited to the level of the speakers. Things that I was used to being at varying heights and distances in the sound stage weren't there. The speakers are now much better in that regard with the upgraded crossovers. Listeners will need to be in the sweet spot to get it.

jtwrace

Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #30 on: 10 Nov 2010, 05:23 pm »
Listeners will need to be in the sweet spot to get it.

As you should always be for any type of critical listening IMO.

sts9fan

Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #31 on: 10 Nov 2010, 05:25 pm »
So how do we get on the list?

jtwrace

Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #32 on: 10 Nov 2010, 05:29 pm »
Danny,have run across any speaker designs where substituting better quality parts made no audible difference?
Scotty

Even poseidonsvoice (Anand) has heard an upgrade (to his ears) with the GedLee Abbey crossover that he did.  Even though he says it was small it was still there according to him.  Hopefully he'll chime in. 

sts9fan

Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #33 on: 10 Nov 2010, 05:47 pm »
jtwrace.  I love how you have a Earl Geddes quote for a sig and are so tweaky.  Also you really should drop either the Dr. or the PhD.  Its redundant and nobody says their name like that. 

So when we kill the chicken and spread the blood around the cables which direction sounds better, clockwise or counter?

Flat Earther

saisunil

Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #34 on: 10 Nov 2010, 05:48 pm »
Way to go Danny  :thumb:
People can measure it, listen to it (experience) and come to their own conclusion - instead of concluding - there are no differences in wire, parts etc.
 
We have a member in our audio society club who says there is no difference in source either - hook an ipod or a high end source ... later he admitted that he can't hear the difference (due to some hearing loss) or that it is not worth the difference in price for him (he is a nice guy though ...)
 
As you said Danny - he can't hear the difference or he does not care to hear the difference vs. there is no difference ...
 
Perhaps the verbiage is there may not be significant differences and every person has their own idea of what significant is from 0% to 100%
 
Thanks for putting a project together for educating anyone who cares to be illuminated ...
 
Cheers
Sunil.

thronbocaj

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #35 on: 10 Nov 2010, 06:33 pm »
Not sure if this has been mentioned already but subjective impressions don't really mean much unless you can consistently pick which is which in blind test.

corndog71

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #36 on: 10 Nov 2010, 06:41 pm »
Not sure if this has been mentioned already but subjective impressions don't really mean much unless you can consistently pick which is which in blind test.
What if you don't want to do that and just want to enjoy listening to music?  Then I'd say subjective impressions mean a lot.

Kind of like driving a car.  Some cars just aren't comfortable to me.  Regardless it will still get me from point A to point B.  I would prefer a car and speaker that are comfortable to me. 

It reminds me of a famous person's philosophy: "Good enough never is."

PDR

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #37 on: 10 Nov 2010, 06:56 pm »
sts.....you have already made up your mind it seems....if its that closed you prob wont hear a difference, even if there is one......human nature. We already know you think little of GR offerings from previous posts.....so you have a bias and it will stay that way......again, human nature.

Save your chicken and keep using Zip cord...if it makes you happy, then great.

Danny Richie

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #38 on: 10 Nov 2010, 07:03 pm »
First stop is the San Francisco area (San Mateo). They are going out today.

For those that will eventually receive the speakers: Feel free to try out the speaker cables with your own speakers.

sts9fan

Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #39 on: 10 Nov 2010, 07:08 pm »
Quote
sts.....you have already made up your mind it seems....if its that closed you prob wont hear a difference, even if there is one......human nature. We already know you think little of GR offerings from previous posts.....so you have a bias and it will stay that way......again, human nature.

Save your chicken and keep using Zip cord...if it makes you happy, then great.

things are not always what they seem.  Anyway the reverse of that says you will hear a difference because you expect it.  As far as my thoughts on GR you are incorrect.  I currently use a GR servo sub and have owned AV1+ which I loved and only got rid of to hook a friend up.  I also always recomend them to people I think I can push into this diseased state, because they are such a value.
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