Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.

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Danny Richie

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #40 on: 10 Nov 2010, 07:09 pm »
things are not always what they seem.  Anyway the reverse of that says you will hear a difference because you expect it.  As far as my thoughts on GR you are incorrect.  I currently use a GR servo sub and have owned AV1+ which I loved and only got rid of to hook a friend up.  I also always recomend them to people I think I can push into this diseased state, because they are such a value.
Back on topic

And thank you. I appreciate that.

thronbocaj

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #41 on: 10 Nov 2010, 07:16 pm »
What if you don't want to do that and just want to enjoy listening to music?  Then I'd say subjective impressions mean a lot.

Kind of like driving a car.  Some cars just aren't comfortable.  Regardless it will still get you from point A to point B.  I would prefer a car and speaker that are comfortable to me.

I think you misread my post, I didn't say that subjective impressions mean nothing, quite the contrary.

Yes, if you subjectively enjoy one crossover configuration more than the other then you should be able to pick which is which in a blind test.  Otherwise your subjective impressions don't really mean much.

PDR

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #42 on: 10 Nov 2010, 08:47 pm »
things are not always what they seem.  Anyway the reverse of that says you will hear a difference because you expect it.

I can buy that.......so its subjective. You hear it if you want and dont if you want.

With that kind of reasoning then nobody should have different observations than what is expected.
It will be interesting to see what the concensus is.
To see if it changes peoples opinion one way or the other.

This should be a cool roadshow.....too bad I'm too far away......damn shipping costs.

JDUBS

Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #43 on: 10 Nov 2010, 09:26 pm »
jtwrace.  I love how you have a Earl Geddes quote for a sig and are so tweaky.  Also you really should drop either the Dr. or the PhD.  Its redundant and nobody says their name like that. 

This is one if the funnier thing I've read on Audiocircle!!  :lol:

Jim

mfsoa

Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #44 on: 10 Nov 2010, 09:31 pm »
I was thinking the same thing - non-medical doctors are supposed to use Mickey Mouse, Ph.D, not Dr. Mickey Mouse.

rave959

Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #45 on: 10 Nov 2010, 09:40 pm »
Vertical and horizontal off axis measurments were posted in that first thread. The upgraded crossover did not change any of that.

Hi Danny,

I hope all is well.  This is a very interesting topic and I'd like to learn from this as well.  Quick question - if the upgraded crossover didn't change the measurements from the stock, then how is it better in terms of sound?  How can the fix(es) (from stock to upgraded x-overs) be validated if it cannot be measured?  This is one of the foundations of math and science, no?

Also, for the ones who evaluate the speakers, how do we know if someone who's stating that there's a big difference that there's nothing wrong with his/her hearing?  My hearing for instance (I'm 29 years old), can be better or inferior than the person next to me listening on the same speaker in the same position, in the same room, taking turns.  Thanks for reading and your time.


Christian

rave959

Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #46 on: 10 Nov 2010, 09:46 pm »
Not sure if this has been mentioned already but subjective impressions don't really mean much unless you can consistently pick which is which in blind test.

Agreed. 

turkey

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #47 on: 10 Nov 2010, 09:51 pm »
I was thinking the same thing - non-medical doctors are supposed to use Mickey Mouse, Ph.D, not Dr. Mickey Mouse.

You can use either one, but not normally both at the same time. Some people prefer one, some the other.

S Clark

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #48 on: 10 Nov 2010, 10:13 pm »
Some people that don't expect to hear a difference may hear one.
Some people that do expect to hear a difference may not hear one.
Some people that are determined to hear a difference will hear one.
Some people that are determined to not hear a difference will not hear one.

This set of speakers is set up to make it as easy as possible.
As far as scientific verification... :duh: good grief, use your damn ears.  :roll:

HAL

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #49 on: 10 Nov 2010, 10:19 pm »
Some people that don't expect to hear a difference may hear one.
Some people that do expect to hear a difference may not hear one.
Some people that are determined to hear a difference will hear one.
Some people that are determined to not hear a difference will not hear one.

This set of speakers is set up to make it as easy as possible.
As far as scientific verification... :duh: good grief, use your damn ears.  :roll:

Now this gets a big :thumb: :thumb:

Danny Richie

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #50 on: 10 Nov 2010, 10:40 pm »
Quote
Quick question - if the upgraded crossover didn't change the measurements from the stock, then how is it better in terms of sound?

Read post number 26 of this thread.

Quote
How can the fix(es) (from stock to upgraded x-overs) be validated if it cannot be measured?  This is one of the foundations of math and science, no?

There are a lot of ways to measure inductors, capacitors, and resistors besides inductance, capacitance, and resistance.

Take capacitors for instance. There are a lot of variables that all have audible effects on the sound. And a lot of them can be measured. Things like dielectric absorption, dissipation factor, etc. Some things that are tougher to measure also have an effect. For instance, the thickness of the film verses the thickness of the conductive material. Sprayed on conductive material verses a rolled film. Then there is the type of dielectric material from polyester, to polypropylene, to Teflon. And all of those sound different.

You can make tons of changes like that without effecting the frequency response.

corndog71

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #51 on: 10 Nov 2010, 10:46 pm »
if the upgraded crossover didn't change the measurements from the stock, then how is it better in terms of sound? 
Christian

You have to listen to find out. :green:

django11

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #52 on: 10 Nov 2010, 11:02 pm »
It seems that those who believe don't need to listen and those that don't believe don't want to listen... :duh: :scratch:

I'd  like to question how good the measurements are if they don't reflect the reality of repeated listening experiences.  I'm not saying that the measurements are not "good" or useful, but rather incomplete if they don't reflect experience.  Science is after all an ongoing process.  Not everything is known...

I know my doctor keeps telling me that symptoms that I have on a repeated basis are totally impossible.  Yet the same causes have been giving the same effects for 15 years?  Which of us is unscientific?

wushuliu

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #53 on: 10 Nov 2010, 11:51 pm »
Very exciting Danny. Some data is better than no data. This will certainly be more productive than interweb bickering.

corndog71

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #54 on: 11 Nov 2010, 01:36 am »
It seems that those who believe don't need to listen

 :scratch:
I don't know where you got that from.  I think those that believe aren't doing so blindly.  They're saying "listen and you'll hear it" and the naysayers are saying they don't trust their senses.

motosapien

Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #55 on: 11 Nov 2010, 11:11 am »
This has been an interesting read.  People's perceptive abilities vary dramatically.  Across all the senses no less!  Perception of color, light & shadow, movement, taste, smell and touch.  I do know that most of my family and friends are not careful listeners to music.  The little things that I notice in a tune, the things that I find pleasing are completely lost on most of them.  Decay, timbre & resonance perhaps describe some of them. 

I've no doubt that there audible differences.  And I'll bet there are measurable differences as well if we had the instrumentation and knew what it was we were looking for.  The subtlety of our senses outstrips our science's ability to explain it.

HAL

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #56 on: 11 Nov 2010, 01:47 pm »
Just as a side to this, my experience with trying DIY parts upgrades in crossovers started in 1983 with my pair of Magneplanar MGIIB's.  They came with Mylar (polyester) film caps in the XO's which were good for the time.  After reading the Audio magazine article in 1980 about dielectric constant measurements in capacitors, I decided to try using polypropylene caps instead, as the dielectric constant was lower than Mylar. The difference is the sound was not subtle with matched value parts.  The transient response of the speaker audibly improved to my hearing. 

This is why I think it is important for folks to experience the difference in XO parts changes and why I gave the speakers to Danny to mod.  Let the listening fun begin!  :D

dvenardos

Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #57 on: 11 Nov 2010, 11:38 pm »
I became a believer in cap upgrades when comparing the Virtue One to the Virtue Two amplifiers on the same system. The Virtue One uses an OEM cap and the Virtue Two uses auricaps. The auricaps sounded significantly better on my system, so much so that I didn't even bother with the idea that I had about a blind test. I recently got a Virtue Two.2 and installed Gen I sonicap with a Gen II bypass cap. You can definitely tell the difference between the auricaps and sonicaps. I am a skeptic by nature, so for me to throw out the necessity of a blind test is an impressive difference.

django11

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #58 on: 12 Nov 2010, 12:29 am »
:scratch:
I don't know where you got that from.  I think those that believe aren't doing so blindly.  They're saying "listen and you'll hear it" and the naysayers are saying they don't trust their senses.

I didn't see anyone asking to get the speakers sent to them...

corndog71

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Re: Okay all of you nay sayers, flat Earthers, etc.
« Reply #59 on: 12 Nov 2010, 12:57 am »
I didn't see anyone asking to get the speakers sent to them...

Oh, I see what you mean.  On page 2 Danny mentioned shipping them to San Francisco.  I guess the request was sent privately.