[tubesguy2]

Is that going to happen?  Will everyone know which is which?  So are you saying based on your last post IF they start with the stock you would understand people prefering the first?  Are any AC regulars going to be at this meeting or just folks with <20 posts?

Wow, you _really_ don't want this test to show anything, do you?

Could we just box up the speakers and send them to this guy (who posts a lot, since that's apparently a requirement) first, so he can weigh in with a null result? Then maybe the real testing can take place without the background noise.

[sts9fan]

I never doubted your "qualifications". I just don't understand why the speakers were sent to someone who was not even envolved in the original disscussion. Or at least an AC regular we all trust.

[dBe]

That's funny. If you doubt my qualifications or experience, check out the blog that I write - baasnotes(dot)com - and its forums. Or talk to any of BAAS' 300 members.

Bob

I just bet you are some 16 year old ringer left handed pitching phenom from Puerto Rico that bats both ways and.......   ahhh, crap: that's Little league...................

Never mind.   

Sometimes I just KILL me.   

Hey, if you see Bob Hodas at Paul's studio, tell him Dave Elledge says 'Hi'.

Dave

[Danny Richie]

The reasons Bob got them:

1. Bob had followed the thread from the beginning.
2. Bob asked for them.
3. Bob offered a venue that would allow ~50 audiophiles to participate.
4. Bob does have great credentials!
5. Bonus! Bob even has his own audiophile website and blog: http://baasnotes.com/blog/
6. After thought, even DanTheMan would have his chance to hear them. Not that I expect him to, but he can't say he didn't have the chance. 
7. And one more post and Bob will be over 20 posts here. 

[teros1]

I just bet you are some 16 year old ringer left handed pitching phenom from Puerto Rico that bats both ways and.......   ahhh, crap: that's Little league...................

Never mind.   

Sometimes I just KILL me.   

Hey, if you see Bob Hodas at Paul's studio, tell him Dave Elledge says 'Hi'.

Dave

Will do.

He and I set up the gig.

Bob

[dBe]

Will do.

He and I set up the gig.

Bob

Well, I can't think of a more credible venue for all of this to happen than Paul Stubblebine's place:   http://www.paulstubblebine.com/mastering/index.php - and to have Bob Hodas help you set it up is pretty telling:   http://www.bobhodas.com/

I want to see anyone dispute the results of this test, no matter how many posts they have.  I think this will work.  Wish I could be there.

Dave

[HAL]

Oh man, wish I was going to be there!

I guess a bucket of popcorn and the F5 key will have to do! 

[Jason_N]

You've changed so much at one time, how can you say every change made a difference and not one of the changes made a difference and the others were a waste of time/money.

Also, you know you made the changes, will you complete double blind studies between the modified and unmodified Behringers?

[jtwrace]

Oh man, wish I was going to be there!

I guess a bucket of popcorn and the F5 key will have to do! 

+1

[dBe]

You've changed so much at one time, how can you say every change made a difference and not one of the changes made a difference and the others were a waste of time/money.

Also, you know you made the changes, will you complete double blind studies between the modified and unmodified Behringers?

When you have been doing this for a long time and have, you know, experience doing these types of modifications, designing speakers, measuring speakers, building speakers, studying the medium and the outcome for say, 20 or 30 years, you just KNOW which ones do what.  Besides, the changes are synergistic.  Each one effects the others and the results are greater than the individual mods taken singularly.

Double blind tests are for those that don't know what they are doing,  have an agenda or can't hear.  A simple A/B works for the initiated.  This is not a venue for double bling testing afficionados.

Dave

[teros1]

OK, first the 'bad news': we didn't have time to set up a blind test. In truth, the test that I had planned was single-blind, and therefore subject to inevitable attack anyway. Still, I wish that we would have been able to do it.

While others have heard the speakers here in my home, I'm only going to describe the results of today's eight-person controlled listening test - and some personal remarks.

The system consisted of a Mac Pro music server, Prism Orpheus DAC, MSB analog buffer stage/volume control, and Goldmund SRM monobloks.

The room is fairly large: 35'x13', with 15' ceiling. The speakers were 6.4' from the short wall, firing down the long dimension.

After a 30-minute 'warmup' listening session, I played one-minute excerpts from the following tracks:

• Boz Scaggs - The Ballad of Sad Young Men
• Bran Bromberg - The Saga of Harrison Crabfeathers
• Corrine May - Fly Away
• Bruce Springsteen - Streets of Fire
• Gergiev/LSO - Mahler 6th, 4th Movement (24/96)

Note: The Mahler was played for a smaller group.

The tracks were played first with the DR crossover and then the stock circuit (in reverse track order). If anyone wanted anything repeated, I would do so. No one did.

Overall, 88% of participants (7/8) heard "unmistakably clear" differences between the two crossovers. In addition, 75% (6/8) considered the modded speakers "a commendable bargain" at a $600/pr price point.

Some individual comments:

• "The stock crossover produced uncontrolled bass, and a bit of objectionable treble roughness"
• "The soundstage collapsed with the stock speaker; it sounded more artificial"
• "The DR crossover produced greater bass cohesion"
• "The DR crossover makes me question my opinion of metal domes - maybe I could come to like them; the stock crossover reinforced my bad opinion of metal domes"
• "The stock was tizzy, almost buzzy; the DR increased individual instrument delineation"
• "The stock system sounded kind of veiled"

As a separate exercise, I played the Mahler 6/4 for myself. I tried not to listen to system specifics - just enjoy the music. I was able to do a reasonable good job of that with the DR xover. With the stock setup, my attention wandered, and I almost got up to check emails! It just wasn't involving.

I also tried the speakers with a secondary system, with decent-quality gainclones driving them. The contrasts between the two crossovers increased in this setup, and the stock system became almost unlistenable.

I will also offer that the stock bass is on the edge of control at higher volumes. Without the damping material that Danny added, I can't imagine what it would be like.

Anyway, it was an enjoyable and useful exercise. Many thanks to Danny for making it happen!

The speakers are ready to be shipped to the next player....

Bob

[HT cOz]

Bob,

Thanks for your write up.  Just imagine if Danny had given them the full works and crafted his own network! 

Robert

[kingdeezie]

Thanks for the write up, I have been following this whole thing from the "shadows."

I fully came to appreciate the differences crossover component quality can have on sound when I took my AV123/DR Line Sources, and had Bill from Response Audio build me the same crossover using better caps, inductors, etc, etc, etc.

The difference was quite drastic, even considering that the original parts weren't nearly that bad (mostly ERSE).

Danny really knows his stuff. 

[dBe]

OK, first the 'bad news': we didn't have time to set up a blind test. In truth, the test that I had planned was single-blind, and therefore subject to inevitable attack anyway. Still, I wish that we would have been able to do it.

While others have heard the speakers here in my home, I'm only going to describe the results of today's eight-person controlled listening test - and some personal remarks.

The system consisted of a Mac Pro music server, Prism Orpheus DAC, MSB analog buffer stage/volume control, and Goldmund SRM monobloks.

The room is fairly large: 35'x13', with 15' ceiling. The speakers were 6.4' from the short wall, firing down the long dimension.

After a 30-minute 'warmup' listening session, I played one-minute excerpts from the following tracks:

• Boz Scaggs - The Ballad of Sad Young Men
• Bran Bromberg - The Saga of Harrison Crabfeathers
• Corrine May - Fly Away
• Bruce Springsteen - Streets of Fire
• Gergiev/LSO - Mahler 6th, 4th Movement (24/96)

Note: The Mahler was played for a smaller group.

The tracks were played first with the DR crossover and then the stock circuit (in reverse track order). If anyone wanted anything repeated, I would do so. No one did.

Overall, 88% of participants (7/8) heard "unmistakably clear" differences between the two crossovers. In addition, 75% (6/8) considered the modded speakers "a commendable bargain" at a $600/pr price point.

Some individual comments:

• "The stock crossover produced uncontrolled bass, and a bit of objectionable treble roughness"
• "The soundstage collapsed with the stock speaker; it sounded more artificial"
• "The DR crossover produced greater bass cohesion"
• "The DR crossover makes me question my opinion of metal domes - maybe I could come to like them; the stock crossover reinforced my bad opinion of metal domes"
• "The stock was tizzy, almost buzzy; the DR increased individual instrument delineation"
• "The stock system sounded kind of veiled"

As a separate exercise, I played the Mahler 6/4 for myself. I tried not to listen to system specifics - just enjoy the music. I was able to do a reasonable good job of that with the DR xover. With the stock setup, my attention wandered, and I almost got up to check emails! It just wasn't involving.

I also tried the speakers with a secondary system, with decent-quality gainclones driving them. The contrasts between the two crossovers increased in this setup, and the stock system became almost unlistenable.

I will also offer that the stock bass is on the edge of control at higher volumes. Without the damping material that Danny added, I can't imagine what it would be like.

Anyway, it was an enjoyable and useful exercise. Many thanks to Danny for making it happen!

The speakers are ready to be shipped to the next player....

Bob

OMG!!!

You mean it wasn't an ABX double blind test performed by a qualified administrator?

I had no doubt that the results would be anything than what they are.  Better parts simply sound better.  It doesn't take anything more than taking the time to DO the listening to know the outcome.

I don't understand people that will argue a position without a frame of reference.   

Dave

[srb]

You mean it wasn't an ABX double blind test performed by a qualified administrator?

Where do you get that certification?  I think I'd like to add "ABX DBT Certified Administrator" to my business card!
 
Steve

[teros1]

@Dave: I wanted to do a blind test both for fun and because some folks simply won't believe anything else. I have never conducted one, but I can see both merits and drawbacks to the procedure. But IMO a DBT is *neither* sufficient nor necessary to evaluate a component.

@Steve: I believe that you want to see Sean Olive for that certification.

Cheers,

Bob

[satfrat]

Where do you get that certification?  I think I'd like to add "ABX DBT Certified Administrator" to my business card!
 
Steve

How can there possibly be any room left on that card Steve? 

[dBe]

@Dave: I wanted to do a blind test both for fun and because some folks simply won't believe anything else. I have never conducted one, but I can see both merits and drawbacks to the procedure. But IMO a DBT is *neither* sufficient nor necessary to evaluate a component.

@Steve: I believe that you want to see Sean Olive for that certification.

Cheers,

Bob

Some of us studio geeks in Albuquerque did some blind and double blind testing when trying to figure out how to get killer recordings with modest equipment back in the early 80's.  It was right after I had my "No s__t!" epiphany that some things just DO sound better than others.  Like any religious zealot I started getting into doing component analysis and a friend of mine built a random generator using a 555 timer to trigger relays.  We never knew what part was in the circuit.  What thAT testing showed was that we did not need to rely upon blind or double blind A/B or A/B/X testing after we trained ourselves on what to listen for in the context of component induced artifacts. Then came the PRAT slew rate wars... 

Great fun, it was.

Dave

[teros1]

What that testing showed was that we did not need to rely upon blind or double blind A/B or A/B/X testing after we trained ourselves on what to listen for in the context of component induced artifacts.

You bet. I will admit, however, that I sometimes ask myself: "Would I hear that change in a DBT?" I find that just asking myself that helps me stay on track. A corollary of this is that I have developed a (healthy) distrust of "barely audible" changes.

Bob

[Guy 13]

Hi all Audio Circle members.
I have been reading some of the threads about capacitors cross over up grades and I am sure that you guys are not imaginating things, there must be a difference, however, I will do my own blind test, because for me, blind test is the only way to hear if there is a difference. I want to make sure that if I invest money in a up grade, I will hear a difference, a big difference.
Guy 13