New Ray Samuels Phono Stage/ Nighthawk

toobluvr · « **Reply #220 on:** 19 Apr 2010, 08:34 pm »

Quote from: kingdeezie on 19 Apr 2010, 08:21 pm

Same as you I believe.

Dynavector 20x-HO.

There is a certain amount of dryness to the sound that I am displeased with; and I don't feel like I am getting the amount of detail that I should be.

I keep thinking maybe I need to roll tubes because I am using the stock JJs, but for a quad matched set of Amperex or Siemens tubes I could buy a Nighthawk almost.

Soooo difficult to diagnose things over the computer. I can say that I do not hear my Dyna 20X as dry at all. Neither does anyone else who listens to my system. Matter of fact, I preferred it to my 2X the price Benz (since sold), which by almost everyone's estimation is liquid and musical.

I don't know if "dryness" is characterisic of the the Dodd house sound. I can say that I owned Dodd 120 mono amps for several years. I stuck with them a long time cause they were sooo good in so many ways, but I did find them a bit dry for my taste. I thought I could tweak it out of them with cap changes and tube choices, but no luck. I ultimately sold them for that reason, and their high'ish noise floor.

Regarding detail......
I don't have tons of experience with different cartridges. I have owned maybe 6 in the $600 to $1500 range. Maybe on an absolute basis compared to the best the 20x is a bit short of detail, but from my reference point, I don't hear it that way at all. I actually think it resolves very well, but in a very natural manner. Everything just seems to hang together nicely to my ears. To me, this is its strong suit. Of all carts I have owned it is probably my favorite.

My guess is that the cart itself is not your problem. Maybe the cart setup or something else in your system. In my experience, if offset angle and overhang are not locked in the distortion that results has a "dry'ish" sounding character to it. I would look there first.

And definitely the tubes. This could be your easiest fix. Hopefully the Dodd is responsive to tube rolling. Most circuits are, but some are not. I once had a Manley tubed preamp that was so strong in its sonic character that the different tubes I used had virtually no sonic effect whatsoever. Tube gear isn't much use to me if I can't shape it a bit with some judicious tube rolling!

If you are looking for liquidity I would not look to Siemens. I think Mullard CV2493 might be just the ticket. Don't worry about the "pinging" they emit if you jostle them -- it is normal. I rec'd these to a buddy for his Dodd line stage and he said they worked great for him. Same thing for another friend in his SAS 10A linestage. Both guys were complaining of a dry and unmusical character. They are almost always my 6922 of choice wherever I have used them. Others feel differently. Depends how you need to shape the sound.

kingdeezie · « **Reply #221 on:** 19 Apr 2010, 09:04 pm »

Interesting, thank you for the suggestions.

Gopher · « **Reply #222 on:** 20 Apr 2010, 10:56 pm »

toobluver,

I just realized from your PM you are local to me. If you care to try my Nighthawk in your system and yours in mind we might be able to decipher if there is a problem with particular settings on yours. I also have a few cartridges on hand if you suspect it might just be the Dyna not playing nicely.

Your message box is full.

toobluvr · « **Reply #223 on:** 20 Apr 2010, 11:19 pm »

Check your email.

John

toobluvr · « **Reply #224 on:** 21 Apr 2010, 02:36 am »

OK....the saga continues.

Installed my buddy's Dyna 17D2 tonight, and things are looking up. I would say the cartridge is noticeably bass light compared to what I am used to (Dyna 20X-H, Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood), but at least it is not soft and loosey goosey. It has good snap and drive...nice and firm....just the way we like it!

Makin progress, fellas!

I probably need to fine tune the cart set up a bit, but I don't get the sense that bass heft / weight will change much. Don't mistake me -- I'm not suggesting at all that the NH is the issue. Simply wondering if this cart is known to be a bit lightweight on the bottom? Any experience out there?

Haven't sampled different NH settings yet. All sounds pretty darn good at 3rd to highest gain setting (is that 60db? I still don't know what all the points are) and 500 ohm load.

A note / question for Ray.....
At .26 mV the 17d2 output is very low and I still have 2 gain clicks left! I figure that's about another 14 db of gain left! Don't know how others feel, but personally I might prefer to have finer gain settings rather than more absolute gain. I don't know that there are that many cartridges with less output than this...are there?

Just a thought. Anybody else?

Gopher · « **Reply #225 on:** 21 Apr 2010, 02:52 am »

Great to hear things are perking up. There is a really good comparative review of the 20xL, H and 17d2 on audioasylum by hukkfinn. It described the 20xH you have as having a ton of bass slam with the Karat having a much leaner bottom end. That is also the impression I have gotten having read about the 17d2, though the only Karat I owned was murdered in transit to me by the postal service some years ago.

toobluvr · « **Reply #226 on:** 21 Apr 2010, 02:55 am »

Quote from: Gopher on 21 Apr 2010, 02:52 am

Great to hear things are perking up. There is a really good comparative review of the 20xL, H and 17d2 on audioasylum by hukkfinn. It described the 20xH you have as having a ton of bass slam with the Karat having a much leaner bottom end. That is also the impression I have gotten having read about the 17d2, though the only Karat I owned was murdered in transit to me by the postal service some years ago.

Oh OK...thanks Fred. I have not researched or read anything at all about the 17D2. All I know about it is what I am hearing right now. Good to know my ears are still workin'!

PS: the 20X-H does indeed have a really slammin' bottom. One of the things I really like about it. My Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood has been laid up with a bent cantilever, but I remember it as being even better down there. And it has a very present midrange, unlike the slightly recessed quality of the 20X-H mids. All the reviews on this Clearaudio cart are spot on -- it is a great one. Highly recommended, especially at used prices!!

Can't wait to get mine back from Soundsmith. But I guess I better send it to him first!

toobluvr · « **Reply #227 on:** 21 Apr 2010, 11:33 am »

Update

The Dyna 17D2 is a bit lightweight and not as fleshed out compared to what I'm used to, but man this thing is fast and nimble and is really liquid and smooth in the mids! A bit more richness would be ideal, but the detail and refinement are captivating. Mids are more present and forward compared to slight recessed quality of the 20X-H.

Sounding quite nice and I'm sure setup is not locked in yet -- what with my aging eyes, bad light, short cantilever and the chunky cartridge body, it was really tough getting an eyeball on things last night. Like a fat man trying to tie his shoes!

I'll double check things today in better light.

But I think this bird of the evening has taken flight and is finally starting to soar! I listen to digital less, and less, and less.......

JakeJ · « **Reply #228 on:** 21 Apr 2010, 03:35 pm »

toobluvr,

Stupid question. Have you played with VTA during any of this? When I was setting up my SME M2-9 arm the first thing I noticed was a loss of bass with the same cart I had been using with my Graham Robin arm (Lyra Lydian Beta). Audio bud John Hoffman came over and had a listen and the first thing out of his mouth was, "Your VTA is off." We adjusted it and voila! Bass out the wazoo plus the tipped up treble smoothed out beautifully.

Just a thought. Glad thing are getting better.

toobluvr · « **Reply #229 on:** 21 Apr 2010, 03:44 pm »

Silly boy!

I'm a tweekin' fool ....who covers all the bases....always! Never met an adjustment I didn't like!

Heavy tube rolling withdrawal since moving to SS amps!

toobluvr · « **Reply #230 on:** 22 Apr 2010, 06:02 pm »

Quote from: kingdeezie on 19 Apr 2010, 08:21 pm

There is a certain amount of dryness to the sound that I am displeased with; and I don't feel like I am getting the amount of detail that I should be.

One other thing I forgot to mention previously. Check your bias (aka anti-skate). If not set properly the resultant distortion can yield a dry and edgy sound.

I just experienced it first hand. Yesterday I switched to a heavier tracking cartridge and forgot to increase the bias. The dry and bright edgieness was driving me nuts. Checked, double checked and triple checked everything. Played around with VTA and VTF. No joy. Till I had my big AH-HAA moment.

Clicked the bias up a bit and.........AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Music the way I remembered it with this cartridge! Smooth, liquid and engaging, lots of natural detail.

JakeJ · « **Reply #231 on:** 22 Apr 2010, 06:25 pm »

And so, how is the bass?

toobluvr · « **Reply #232 on:** 22 Apr 2010, 06:33 pm »

Been listening with the Vista. More later.

But I did make progress on the bent Clearaudio cantilever. Took a pair of tweezers to it last night...held my breath....and performed a cantilever-ectomy.

Figured I had nothing to lose -- it was already designated for a Soundsmith rebuild.

Sounds great.....actually, sounds excellent. Saved myself some dosh! And now I have two HO carts to play with and figure things out.

fld · « **Reply #233 on:** 22 Apr 2010, 09:35 pm »

Been following this thread for a couple of days.
If you guys don't mind, what carts have you successfully mated this cart with ?
Would appreciate some inputs.

DARTH AUDIO · « **Reply #234 on:** 22 Apr 2010, 09:48 pm »

Quote from: fld on 22 Apr 2010, 09:35 pm

Been following this thread for a couple of days.
If you guys don't mind, what carts have you successfully mated this cart with ?
Would appreciate some inputs.

I have the Benz LO Glider. Mate very well with the NH!!

Ericus Rex · « **Reply #235 on:** 23 Apr 2010, 12:12 am »

I have a Benz M2 wood body. Haven't compared with others but I like what I'm getting

Gopher · « **Reply #236 on:** 23 Apr 2010, 01:59 am »

Koetsu Rosewood Signature, Shelter 501 MKII, Nagoaka MP-50 and presently, Denon DL-103D. It has proven quite versatile in the time I've had it. The only potential problem cart I have heard of is tooblvr's 20xH, but I will be trying his cart in my system tomorrow to see how it goes.

The term "transparent" is kicked around too much in audio, but I think its pretty fitting of the NH in my experience. It has really gotten out of the way and let cartridges do do their thing.

fld · « **Reply #237 on:** 23 Apr 2010, 02:09 am »

Thanks for those who posted.
Has anyone compared this phono stage with higher end models in the likes of the EAR834p, Graham Slee Project ERA GOLD & others ?

toobluvr · « **Reply #238 on:** 23 Apr 2010, 02:12 am »

It has already been compared to several units costing much more than those models.

shaizada · « **Reply #239 on:** 23 Apr 2010, 03:43 am »