[JakeJ]

You're right, John, I should have kept only the first of those two sentences...oops! 

To clarify I have always had the volume pot at a lower setting on CD playback for the same loudness level (SPL) than with vinyl.  This means, to me, that I have typically had a mismatch with my CD players and preamps, although it's much better with the VAC CPA-1 than with any previous preamp I've owned since I have had a CD player.  Which I have not.  First purchase of a digital playback system was the Adcom GCD-750 in 1999.

Clear as mud?

[blakep]

Thanks for the informative reply, Blake.  But using your logic begs the following question.   If the lowest (40db) gain setting is appropriate for my 2.8 mV cartridge, what would much higher outputs use....like those in the 5.0 to 6.0 range?

At 9 db my line stage gain is just a touch on the low side.  My Vista phono section gain is fixed at 40 db.  I definitely use more of the volume pot with it compared to CD.   For most of my listening it is fine, but when I crank the vinyl tunes a bit it kindof runs out of steam.  That is why with the NH I find the setting right above 40 db to be close to ideal.  I assume it is about 47 db.

I am always interested in improving my sound so I will try the NH set to 40 db instead.  Thanks for the tip.     I did not know it was normal to be running the line stage volume pot more open for vinyl than compared to digital.
I thought if you had appropriate phono gain the two sources would be real close to level matched at any volume pot setting.

Ideally, cartridges that output 5-6 mV probably should be using 35-36 db of gain at the phono stage. But, as you point out, all systems are different and, in your case, if you are light at the line stage in terms of gain you might be running out of gas. Those with passive preamps frequently have this kind of problem.

Most people, however, should not be experiencing this kind of problem and I would say that, in the vast majority of systems, it would be quite normal to run the volume pot higher when playing vinyl than when playing CD. Not really a "mismatch" as Jake describes, but a normal situation.

Keep in mind that, during loud passages on vinyl, cartridges may output 5-7 times their stated output. The question then becomes, by simply increasing gain at the phono stage 1) are you overloading the phono input and 2) are you overloading your line input further down the line. Overloading in either case is not a good situation and will result in degraded sound quality. It's important to not have too much gain! That goes for the CD input as well and there are many people who argue that CD inputs should be attenuated to achieve better sound quality and make better use of the volume pot.

As far as using gain at the phono stage to match SPL levels between CD and Vinyl, I'd think that, in the vast majority of situations this would be a pretty bad idea and would result in overloading either the phono preamp or the preamp further up the line as a result of having too much gain. If you really wanted to balance SPL levels it would make a lot more sense to me to attenuate the CD input. Personally, I just live with the difference.

[toobluvr]

Dropped the Nighthawk into my back pocket today and visited a local audio buddy for a 4 hr vinyl-a-thon.    To say he has a VG system is an understatement:  Innersound Kaya speakers, Roger Sanders built amps specifically for the Kaya (KT 88 tubes for the panel, SS for the woofs),  Dhart-Zeel preamp,  rebuilt Garrard 401 + Wheaton Tri-Planar + muy expensivo Dynavector and Ortofon carts.  His analog setup is sublime....so much so that I don't wanna listen to digital over there.

His system is significantly more transparent and revealing than mine and just does everything better, so I was curious to put the 'hawk head to head vs the DZ internal phono section.  I'll say right upfront that both phono stages produced what most would consider super high end sound.....vastly different...but both VG.

We ran the NH into the DZ line section via a 1m pair of my Morrow MA3 IC.  Having used Morrow cabling throughout my entire system for awhile now, I knew they were really good, but until I heard them in this system I really had no idea just how exquisite they really are.  I was not prepared for the sheer ferocity and finesse they produced when linking the NH phono to the DZ line section.

While the DZ produced a sound with vinyl that was uber-transparent and revealing, it never managed to immerse me into the music in a way that other setups of similar stature have.  The NH changed all that...at least for me and my tastes.   

With NH/Morrow in place the sound was silky smooth and the soundstage very large.   There was brawn and slam as well as finesse and refinement.   Probably not quite as revealing of fine inner detail as the DZ, but that didn't bother me because it was a bit fuller, warmer and had better pace, liquidity and flow.   To my ears the DZ sounded a bit choppy and mechanical,  while the NH / Morrow produced a very fluid, coherent, organic and well integrated natural sound.   I also observed that the DZ could get a bit peaky and shrill on some passages, while the NH didn't and seemed to stay more composed.  The NH bass was extremely well done......rich, textured, nuanced and detailed.  Great slam and hugely weighty when appropriate.  No overhang, no bloat, no boom.  Better bass than the DZ, which was a bit soft.

Couldn't Stand the Weather by SRV and Paul Simon's Graceland were a sheer joy on both these setups.  Both albums are sonic and musical masterpieces,  but I really enjoyed them with the NH / Morrow setup.

All in all, I found the NH more to my liking in his system.   It engaged me more and made me wanna listen longer.  My buddy heard and characterized the differences the same as me.  Two great presentations.  One's preference ultimately comes down to individual taste, but I think he too preferred the NH.

Very worthwhile afternoon.   Not only was the beer budget NH not embarrassed in this champagne system, it stood toe-to-toe with a very highly regarded preamp, and to my ears, actually delivered a knockout blow.   Rather than warts being exposed, the highly revealing nature of the system it played in actually allowed the NH poise, refinement and musical flow to shine through.

Now if I could only get the NH to do bass in my system as it did in my buddy's.      It is still producing bass that is softer and inferior to what my more modest Vista phono section is producing.  Despite this and some other teething pains in my system, today demonstrated to me just how incredibly capable it is, so I will hang in there.

To anyone on the fence on the NH, my advise is to jump off and in....the water's fine!   After this experience I recommend it with no reservations whatsoever.   I think my buddy is still picking his jaw off the floor (and quite possibly, having a bit of anxiety over his DZ choice   )  !     

Oh, and a big congrats to Ray for a superb piece of kit at a great price!   

[TheChairGuy]

toobluvr/John....bass is usually the last thing thing to fully round out in components I've had that experienced long break-in times (whether that is in my head, which I personally doubt, or not)

Unless the Vista has boosted bass in it's RIAA equalization (Graham Slee pre's to, and they are well thought of, so Vista wouldn't be alone in that regard)....you should eventually hear bass from the Nighthawk.

Not sure why you heard good bass at your buddies and not your system...but giving it more time may be the answer 

John

[JakeJ]

Yeah, it's weird you're not getting bass because I am, in spades.  I have about 130 or so hours on my 'hawk and the slightly dry treble and bit of mechanical sounding bass I first experienced is all gone.

I listened to three discs last night before work (couldn't sleep).  Mel Torme's I Wished On The Moon and on the fourth cut on side two, "Country Fair", the arrangement mixed in a small orchestra with the jazz band and there was clearly some judiciously place tympani thwacks in there.  And later on listening to Pablo Live Montreux '77 The Pablo All Stars Jam, both stand-up and electric bass are full and deep throughout that record.  Also played a copy of Joe Morello's It's About Time and the bass drum was definitely there and swingin', turned out to be a mighty fine LP too surface noise-wise.

John, I'm guessing bass is fine on CD so you are not suspect of the system or any single component?  Your dilemma is a head-scratcher. 

Seek and ye shall find.  And keep us posted.

[toobluvr]

Trust me Jake, lots of        goin on in casa Toobluvr at the moment!   

It's not a question of bass quantity.   The bass is there.  It is about presentation and quality.  It is soft and round while the Vista bass is firm and tight and has good attack and slam.

Ruminating on possible explanations, I come up empty. 

Problem elsewhere in my system?
I doubt it.    When I insert Vista phono in my system I get correct bass.

More burn in required?
I doubt it.  I estimate about 40 hrs of listening time, and four complete charge/discharge cycles.  Besides, if more burn-in were needed, why would the NH bass be so good in my buddy's system?  (see my post above)

My buddy does have a LO cart (I have HO), so we used different NH load and gain settings.  Clutching at straws here, and I know not likely, but maybe NH just performs better with those settings?

Any HO cartridge users out there loading at 47k?   Comments?

Just gonna stick with it.  It will get sorted.   

[Gopher]

I loaded a Nagoaka MP-50 at 47k with MM/low gain.  I did not notice a decrease in bass performance...

It sounds like there is some sort of synergy issue going on in your system as you've witnessed what it is capable of.  I know you like your Morrow cables, but perhaps try rolling a set of something else in...

I'm not really sure what else to say other than, don't give up!  The closest thing to a complaint I have with it is having to occasionally charge the battery.  But it only discharges because I've listened so darn much.

[toobluvr]

Thanks for the input, Gopher!   

In my report above I mentioned that the NH in my buddy's system was tethered to his DZ line stage with my Morrow MA3 IC and the setup was truely exceptional.  So I really don't think it is a synergy issue with the Morrow IC.  If it was, why would they work so well together in his system?   

Besides that, I have already tried several different IC.  Same result with all.

And yes, as you say I have experienced the NH capabilities....albeit outside of my system.  So I keep fighting!   

[Gopher]

I wish I had something more constructive to offer, but it sounds like it may be an unfortunate case of a good piece of gear just not playing well in your system.  I've had similar experiences with digital sources which worked well in some systems but would not play well with my own. 

Hopefully this isn't the case, but who knows.  Is there a possibility your 20xH just doesn't like the Nighthawk? 

Hope you get to the bottom of it!  Maybe you should email Ray for suggestions.

[tomjtx]

I get great bass with my NH. Very tight, focused, coherent and with great weight and slam.

I will be very interested when/if you figure out what is going on with the interaction in your system.

Have you tried adjusting the load?

[toobluvr]

I have tried everything I can think of.  Cartridge is Dynavector 20X-H.  Output is 2.8 mV and mfr rec'd load is "greater than 1k".  It sounds best at 47k.  When I goto 1k load the top gets rolled off, and continues to get worse with more loading.

The lowest NH gain setting (40 db) seems about right for me.  One higher (47 db?) is also OK......probably a bit too much since it keeps me real low on the volume pot.  The next one up (54 db?) is definitely too high.

My Vista phono section is set for 47k and 40db.....exactly how I use the NH.

Next up:   This week I will borrow a cartridge (Dynavector 17D2) from a buddy to see if that gels any better.  Maybe for some odd reason the 'hawk just doesn't wanna play nice with my 20X-H?   Any other 20X-H users out there?

I also have a Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood in the drawer.  That would be interesting since it requires the same 47k and 40 db settings.  Cantilever is a bit bent so I'd rather not, but I'll do so if I hafta....in the interest of science.   

[Gopher]

I'll be interested in your findings there as I may buy a Dynavector 17d2/3 at some point.  Right now I've finally found something that sounds "right" in my system--a Denon DL-103D.  I almost didn't bother trying it as the  103 didn't really impress me, but I'm glad I did.  This thing may have staying power.

Is it possible there is something defective in your phono preamp that presents itself in certain loads/gains but not in others?  Maybe your friends cart wasn't dialed in using the malfunction section?  I'm not technically savy, but I'm trying to think of something...

Slightly off topic, but I'm just curious--did you ever listen to your Vista phono pre in your friends system?  At the price (especially if I can find one used) it sounds like a good gift for my father.

[DARTH AUDIO]

I have tried everything I can think of.  Cartridge is Dynavector 20X-H.  Output is 2.8 mV and mfr rec'd load is "greater than 1k".  It sounds best at 47k.  When I goto 1k load the top gets rolled off, and continues to get worse with more loading.

The lowest NH gain setting (40 db) seems about right for me.  One higher (47 db?) is also OK......probably a bit too much since it keeps me real low on the volume pot.  The next one up (54 db?) is definitely too high.

My Vista phono section is set for 47k and 40db.....exactly how I use the NH.

Next up:   This week I will borrow a cartridge (Dynavector 17D2) from a buddy to see if that gels any better.  Maybe for some odd reason the 'hawk just doesn't wanna play nice with my 20X-H?   Any other 20X-H users out there?

I also have a Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood in the drawer.  That would be interesting since it requires the same 47k and 40 db settings.  Cantilever is a bit bent so I'd rather not, but I'll do so if I hafta....in the interest of science.   

I get great bass with my NH. Very tight, focused, coherent and with great weight and slam.

I will be very interested when/if you figure out what is going on with the interaction in your system.

Have you tried adjusting the load?

I don't want to pile on, but I hear the same as tomjtx. I'm curious as to what could be causing this? I currently use the Low Output Benz Glider. Maybe it's the high output cart you are using? Hopefully Ray will chime in. Good Luck..

Gary

[toobluvr]

Couldn't use the Vista in my buddy's system.   He has LOMC and the Vista is set for HOMM.  But I have tried it in several other systems with suitable cartridges.  It is always VG.

If you like the NH, you will like the Vista...trust me.

Is it possible there is something defective in your phono preamp that presents itself in certain loads/gains but not in others?  Maybe your friends cart wasn't dialed in using the malfunction section?  I'm not technically savy, but I'm trying to think of something...

I had the same exact thought.  I doubt it, but anything's possible I suppose.  That is why I will try other cartridges.  And yes, my friend's LOMC cartridge required different NH load / gain settings than my HOMC.

[toobluvr]

I don't want to pile on, but I hear the same as tomjtx. I'm curious as to what could be causing this? I currently use the Low Output Benz Glider. Maybe it's the high output cart you are using? Hopefully Ray will chime in. Good Luck..

Gary

No worries Gary...I don't feel piled on at all.  It is a mystery to be solved, so all input is welcome!   

I can say this.....it's not just me, one man's opinion.

Another audio buddy just left.  We did a direct comparo of both phono stages.  He too agreed that the Vista has the tighter bass with better slam, weight, articulation and detail  The overall Vista presentation is heftier with greater dynamics, control and impact.  Comparatively, the NH sounds soft and round.  It's really pretty obvious, not subtle at all.  He is the third experienced audio buddy that has done the comparison  (all separately, so no groupthink effect), and the comments / preferences are unanimous.

I don't want it to seem like I am slamming any product or anybody.  Like I've already said, I thought the NH was phenomenal in my buddy's system--very dynamic with great heft and slam, and not soft sounding at all.   I want to prefer the NH...I really do.  But I hear what I hear, and it's not really gelling in my system with my cartridge.   

Based on all the evidence I can only conclude that either that's just the way it sounds with my stuff--for whatever reason, synergy mismatch or something??-- or maybe I have a unit that is somehow defective with the MM settings?   I just don't know.   

[Ray Samuels]

Hey John...
I have a fully burned-in F-117, Nighthawk all black, heading your way, you should get it in 2 days.
Ray Samuels

[toobluvr]

Thanks Ray...you're the best!! 

For that you get added to my Christmas card list!   

[kingdeezie]

Anybody heard this thing in comparison to a Dodd Phono Preamp?

I have the Dodd now, and for whatever reason I am just not thrilled with my TT setup. I keep messing with the cart set up but feel like I am getting no where.

I was thinking its either my cart or my phono preamp; but its hard to change the cartridge since the Dodd is limited in gain, and can't run a low output MC.

[toobluvr]

Easiest thing to do is try a different HO cart.   What do you use now?

[kingdeezie]

Same as you I believe.

Dynavector 20x-HO.

There is a certain amount of dryness to the sound that I am displeased with; and I don't feel like I am getting the amount of detail that I should be.

I keep thinking maybe I need to roll tubes because I am using the stock JJs, but for a quad matched set of Amperex or Siemens tubes I could buy a Nighthawk almost.